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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Any other Scottish teachers sad and disappointed this week?

89 replies

tiredtiredteacher · 23/08/2024 18:09

Year 15 in teaching and it's just getting too much.

The ASN failures are what are really getting to me. I am personally failing the most vulnerable children and there is no alternative. What can I do with a non verbal incontinent child while I'm trying to teach 24 others to read? Then there's the most aggressive, violent six year old I've ever encountered, who desperately needs psychiatric help but apparently only needs a play based curriculum- don't even get me started on freeflow.

What is it going to take? A child to die running away from school? A child to die being attacked in school?

I love my job but it is killing me.

OP posts:
willowthecat · 30/08/2024 10:27

Anisty · 30/08/2024 10:01

I don't think there are more SEN kids - there are more SEN kids in mainstream because there's nowhere else to place them.

And - modern life is just way more difficult for kids that previously would have coped. Some kids, years ago, had 'odd' traits but largely got by - the kids that struggled in PE or stood at the edge of the playground. Kids with messy handwriting, disorganised, poor listeners. They have always been there.

But, in classrooms of old with forward facing desks and didactic teaching methods where you were drilled in maths, spelling, handwriting etc. That is going to suit an autistic mind. Kids did everything en masse. They sat, were quiet, copied what was on the board, went out to play together. Pretty regimented.

Even life was easier - if you were female your choice was largely to grow up, marry and have kids. Clever girls might have been nurses or teachers.
Boys - a trade, army, traditional male role.

And more mums were at home with their pre schoolers so there would not have been all the rush and stimuli that there is in today's homes. Mum would have been busy with the chores, and less severe SEN kids would just have been able to develop in their own time .

Of course they'd have had an awful time from their peers - and class teachers also could be pretty harsh on kids back in those days.

I still remember when i was in P1 back in 1971, our teacher standing over a boy and being very intimidating because he could not/would not drink his school milk through a straw and she shouted at him that "even babies can suck!"

He might well have been ASD as, some years later, a teacher told him to "pull his socks up!" (As in improve your work) and he bent down and pulled up his socks. We all laughed, including the teacher.

My memory of him is that he was always the teacher's target in every year and us kids just thought of him as a bit simple.

But that was one child in 30. The rest of us managed primary but we definitely had our share of anorexics, nervous breakdowns etc at high school.

So - always been there plus modern life IMO

Also the severely disabled like my ds1 would not even have gone to an LA school at all in the 80s it would have been a joint Social Work/Education place in a residential setting - but all closed down rather than modernised, then the severely disabled went into the the LA special schools and those in the LA special schools were moved to mainstream - I don't think there is an increase in real terms, it's just different ways of packaging it. There was one autistic boy at my younger son's mainstream - he was mild by the standards of my older son but very severe by the standards of mainstream. There is no generally accepted definition of what 'severe' and 'miild' even mean, it's all relative to what you are comparing to. The autistic boy 'attending' mainstream was hardly ever there as he was a reduced timetable and his mum had to be his 1-1 . But at my older son's school he would have been the star of the show, lightyears ahead of the others

Sunsgoingtokeepshining · 30/08/2024 10:29

My ASD child would have coped fine if there was just more discipline and calmness. When kids are constantly shouting, pushing, shoving, throwing things, both in class and outwith it was just overwhelming. There are special schools and if I had enough energy I could have fought to get them into one but like so many ASD kids my child excels academically and a lot of special schools don’t cater for that as well.

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 10:37

Sunsgoingtokeepshining · 30/08/2024 10:29

My ASD child would have coped fine if there was just more discipline and calmness. When kids are constantly shouting, pushing, shoving, throwing things, both in class and outwith it was just overwhelming. There are special schools and if I had enough energy I could have fought to get them into one but like so many ASD kids my child excels academically and a lot of special schools don’t cater for that as well.

In England children like yours can be funded by councils to attend mainstream independent schools. That is not an option in Scotland.

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 10:42

The term ‘additional support needs’ covers a very wide range of needs including bereavement, drug dependency, young carers. One of the biggest reasons for ASN is English as an Additional Language. This has meant the category has really become too broad to be useful.

willowthecat · 30/08/2024 11:06

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 10:42

The term ‘additional support needs’ covers a very wide range of needs including bereavement, drug dependency, young carers. One of the biggest reasons for ASN is English as an Additional Language. This has meant the category has really become too broad to be useful.

Yes bereavement is a serious issue but pointless to bundle it in with severe disability. There was a Scottish Politician who said that he believed all Scottish children have Additional Needs - this kind of romantic self righteous 'include everyone' thinking has made the whole system unworkable

London2024 · 30/08/2024 11:10

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 10:42

The term ‘additional support needs’ covers a very wide range of needs including bereavement, drug dependency, young carers. One of the biggest reasons for ASN is English as an Additional Language. This has meant the category has really become too broad to be useful.

No it doesn't.

I'm an ASN teacher. Other issues will be recorded but being a carer does not equal additional support needs. EAL and ASN are also separate.

Therightcoffee · 30/08/2024 11:19

So we're seriously saying the 40 percent of ASN doesn't include EAL etc?

The problem partly is the reporting, no idea what constitutes ASN according to this.

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 11:28

London2024 · 30/08/2024 11:10

No it doesn't.

I'm an ASN teacher. Other issues will be recorded but being a carer does not equal additional support needs. EAL and ASN are also separate.

You are wrong, which is worrying if you work in ASN:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-childrens-learning-statutory-guidance-education-additional-support-learning-scotland/pages/2/

  1. The Act provides the legal framework for supporting children and young people in their school education, and their families. This framework is based on the idea of additional support needs. This broad and inclusive term applies to children or young people who, for whatever reason, require additional support, in the long or short term, in order to help them make the most of their school education and to be included fully in their learning. Children or young people may require additional support for a variety of reasons and may include those who:
  • have motor or sensory impairments
  • have low birth weight
  • are being bullied
  • are children of parents in the Armed Forces
  • are particularly able or talented [15]
  • have experienced a bereavement
  • are affected by imprisonment of a family member
  • are interrupted learners
  • have a learning disability
  • have barriers to learning as a result of a health need, such as fetal alcohol spectrum disorder
  • are looked after by a local authority [16] or who have been adopted
  • have a learning difficulty, such as dyslexia
  • are living with parents who are abusing substances
  • are living with parents who have mental health problems
  • have English as an additional language
  • are not attending school regularly
  • have emotional or social difficulties
  • are on the child protection register
  • are refugees
  • are young carers

Additional support for learning: statutory guidance 2017

Statutory guidance to the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004 as amended.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-childrens-learning-statutory-guidance-education-additional-support-learning-scotland/pages/17/

KielderWater · 30/08/2024 11:30

Numbers (2023):

Any other Scottish teachers sad and disappointed this week?
tiredtiredteacher · 30/08/2024 17:02

Possibly depends on council- ours definitely includes EAL under the ASN umbrella.

There are also so many babies being born premature and ill who survive now but survive with very complex needs. We need so many new units and special schools which cater to wheelchair users, behavioural issues, autism etc.

OP posts:
Marmalady75 · 08/09/2024 08:11

London2024 · 27/08/2024 19:50

I see, yes I agree. I have had terrified ASN children hiding under tables.

Looking at Glasgow, the previous head of education essentially removed the ability to exclude. I have personally seen a pupil put a HT in a head lock. Very deprived area. No exclusion as the HT was already in trouble due to suspending very violent pupils.

We must stop HMiE praising schools who have had no exclusions in inspection reports.

I have seen a pupil holding a Hat against the wall by her throat - no exclusion.
I have seen a support worker tackled to the ground, the child sit on her chest and repeatedly bag her head in the floor causing so much physical damage and trauma that she never returned to work - no exclusion.
I have been physically assaulted several times, repeatedly verbally assaulted, had threats made to me etc - nothing is done.
Last time I was I was told to F off and called a “fat c*nt” it was suggested I give the child a colouring in sheet instead of asking them to do class work. (Child has no SEN diagnosis and is just violent when he doesn’t get his way). The children in the class are terrified of him. We have had several parents pull their children out of school stating his behaviour as the reason.
The whole system is screwed!

KielderWater · 08/09/2024 09:18

Child has no SEN diagnosis and is just violent when he doesn’t get his way

A child who is violent when they don’t get their way has ASN. Thry do not need a diagnosis to be entitled to support though many children with SEBD are undiagnosed - this is particularly the case in deprived areas. But inappropriate/violent response to challenge is an ASN regardless of diagnosis. However, simply not excluding children and leaving them in mainstream is not ‘support’. There is a need for need specialist intervention in specialist centres which no longer exist (and probably several years earlier in their education). As it is, their behaviour will continue into adulthood and they will end up in prison - but not until 25 because despite the SNP thinking you are old enough to be married, vote, ‘change gender’ including consenting to a range of destructive medical interventions at 16, they don’t think you should be held fully accountable for your crimes until 25. And by then you will be teaching their offspring…

DearGoldFish · 14/09/2024 11:03

Cartwrightandson · 27/08/2024 07:06

We are in England, my dc has just finished year 6, he hated school, called it a prison, because of the appalling behaviour of other children..SLT gaslit and manipulated...my youngest will not be attending the same school.

Staff were not supported in effective behaviour management. Just left to get on with it. My son saw a TA break down and say she couldn't cope (she's been there 15+ years). Nothing done...

why on earth didn’t you move him?

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