Is S4 an ok year to move into, or should we move earlier/later?

[PotrzebujeSnu]

Pretty much that. Currently based in Poland and we would like to move back home. We are very out of touch with what’s happening, hence the question.

Currently DC1 is in what is known as K7. Next September DC1 would be K8, which is the last year of primary and the year in which Poland do the E8 exams. These exams decide the next step of their education, although, probably not needed considering we plan on leaving the country. We were thinking to move at this point because it would be a nice rounding off of their time in Poland. DC1 would be 15 then, and when I try and work it out, that equates to S4 in Scotland.

Is S4 an ok year to move into or will it have its challenges? Is it better to move earlier? Later? Could a 15 year old go into S3 if needed? Or even S5?

S3 is the best year to move.

Nat 5s, the first set off public exams, are sat at the end of S4 (April/May)
Theoretically it's a one year course but schools all start the course some time in S3, often after Easter and certainly by 1st June at the latest. So if your DC arrives in August at start S4 they will already have missed part of the course.

I wouldn't want to move a child to a new country with a completely different education system and expect them to take their exams all in the same year. It's a lot to get to grips with.
You could apply for S3 entry and it might be accepted by the school depending when their birthday is

S4 is not a good year to enter the Scottish system. Arguably the worst possible time as they will be mid examination courses and only have 9 months before a full diet of examinations. If at all possible get DC enrolled in S3. What month are they born?

Thank you.
Looks like S3 is the one. I had it in my head the new exams were one year, but I’d forgotten about the starting after Easter thing.

DC1 has a march birthday. Born 2010. (So should currently be S2 I think). You can’t defer a march birthday can you?

March birthday means they'd be the oldest in their year group as the cut-off is 28 Feb

Thanks HeatherBell. Now realising I’ve forgotten far too much.

How likely/open are schools to admitting into the year below in situation such as the child has come from another education system? Is there any flexibility?

Thinking out loud now to try and explore the options, but another question would be moving DC1 for S5 which would put DC2 in S3.

Does that work? It would mean going straight to highers for DC1. Is that too risky? How important is it to have nat 5s?

Mine are primary school age so I'm not too up to date with secondary qualifications. I would assume that schools can defer if there is a need although with a March birthday that would put him as being quite old in his year group. Possibly up to 2 years difference with some of the youngest kids. Whether Highers can be taken without Nats I don't know - I assume they would have had to pass equivalent exams in Poland first. Will the language be an issue? It feels like you need to speak directly to the Education Dept of the Council you're planning to move to

Regarding highers, again the course starts in June, after S4 exams so DC will already have missed a bit.

Regarding taking highers without Nat 5 it depends on the subject. Some topic driven course like History, modem studies are easier to do. Obviously things like maths, languages transfer well across countries but with some subjects your DC may have covered different aspects of the subject and therefore DC may be missing some knowledge/skills they need to have to build on for higher.

There have been threads on here before where DC have moved from England where they'd done GCSEs and started highers in subjects where some of the course was very unfamiliar as there were aspects they hadn't covered in their GCSE course whereas it had been in Nat 5.

I'd honestly go for S3 entry if at all possible to make the move smoother for DC and give your DC the best chance in their exams.

The only equivalent exams Poland has would probably be the E8 which is the primary school leaving exam (primary school ends at age 15) where they do exams in maths, Polish and English. There’s no real equivalent Nat 5/GCSE series of exams. The closest equivalent would be matura which is like higher/advanced higher/a level.

I don’t think language will be a barrier, although they are in for a culture shock. Both DC have very good English, it’s the home language and we have always encouraged reading, writing etc. Poland is also very good at teaching English despite it being the foreign language. Although, they probably have some subject related vocab which they aren’t so sure on. They could also do with working on their accents (they have some sort of mangled Polish-English-Scots accent with lots of Scots words in it 🤔, it can be quite entertaining)

Im thinking S5 is also off the cards. I can see how a lot of things will transfer over, but I don’t want to make things unnecessarily hard for DC1. I had a quick comparison of syllabi between systems for Nat5 and E8, as well as, highers and matura. DC are going to be ahead on some things and behind in others. I’m thinking S3 is best as it gives time for things to level out.

I will try and get hold of the education dept of the appropriate council in the new year and see if we are able to defer entry into S3 due to circumstances. We could move summer 2024, which would put DC1 in the proper class, but would be a bit of a rush/struggle to sort everything out compared to a 2025 move.

The other consideration with S5 entry @PotrzebujeSnu is university funding if your DC wishes to go on to university in Scotland.

As well as being ordinarily resident in Scotland you also have to have lived in the UK for at least 3 years prior to starting university in order to be eligible for free tuition.
So if you DC came to Scotland at start of S5 they would not be eligible when they left school 2 years later.
Not the end of the world as could take a gap year but just something to consider.

When we moved to Scotland, ds1 should have gone into S4, but as this would have meant him catching up basically half the Standard Grade curriculum (Standard Grades are what they sat at the end of S4 - Nat 5s now), so he actually went back a year and started in S3.

We were very glad we'd done this - it worked really well for him. He had been one of the youngest in his year in his English school, so he was one of the oldest in S4, but didn't stand out as such - if that makes sense. He really benefitted from learning the whole curriculum at the same pace as the rest of the pupils.

I hadn’t even thought about Uni @HorMon , seems such a long way away. But I suppose that is a consideration. Very good point.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius thank you. I don’t think DC1 would mind being in the year below. With an understanding of the reasoning why, would be fine with it. Poland is flexible with year groupings (to an extent) so used to a class where there can be a 2 year age gap. Can I ask, how did you go about getting your DS into the year below? Who did you contact/agree this with - the school?

Definitely S3. I can’t see any other time where it will work. Especially if there is a culture shock to overcome. Subjects will map over but it really depends what they have been learning at school in poland and how the polish exams work compared to Nat 5s in terms of the whole depth and breadth thing. To give an idea of what I mean, for Nat 5, my DD did 7 which had to be chosen from across the CFE areas and, excluding English and maths, had to cover at least 3 of the remaining 5 areas. So she ended up with English, maths, biology, practical cooking, geography and drama.
DS is in S2 and he’s having to make choices this year for the Nat 5s he will do in S4. He also has to make sure he covers as many of the CFE areas as possible. It’s a bit of a pain really.

Out of interest, how do the polish exams compare to the Scottish exams? Are they a similar level? Do they do a similar breadth of subjects? If it’s about breadth then S3 definitely, but if it’s more depth I might actually think about S5. I still thing S3 is the best but considering that might help your decision.

I am genuinely interested interested in what polands exams are like, so if you are able to, would you mind expanding on what the curriculum is? It’s ok if not.

How likely/open are schools to admitting into the year below in situation such as the child has come from another education system? Is there any flexibility?

In my experience yes, far more so than in England. You'd need to approach the individual school and ask. In year admissions may be possible but will depend on the school and how much space they have at the time. It's definitely sensible to start thinking about this in advance.

Thank you!
Flexible entry to S3 is making me a bit happier.

I have some thinking and some investigating to do but I think we will be aiming for an S3 entry because that seems to be the best thing to do.

@PotrzebujeSnu - yes, we discussed it with the school, and they were happy for him to go back a year.

I’m happy to answer more questions, if I can help - and if you were to move to the Glasgow area, we could meet up, if that would help.

Definitely for the start of S3 - Nat 5 courses are taught over S3& 4 with exams at end of S4. To move in S4 would be a nightmare exam wise. Also socially my 3 all changed friendship groups at start of S3 when they were in chosen subjects, so would be easier transition for that as well.

If you need to wait until older then possibly better to start for S5 & higher Subject choices - many of the higher subjects don't require prior knowledge from Nat 5.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius that’s a really kind offer, thank you. We have a lot to think about and sort, but I will bare that in mind. We’re likely to be going to Ayrshire somewhere, as that is where we both call home, but that all depends on jobs so could be near Glasgow.

@TodayIsFridaySoIAmHappy

To answer this bit:
I am genuinely interested interested in what polands exams are like, so if you are able to, would you mind expanding on what the curriculum is? It’s ok if not.

That’s quite a complex question, but I’ll give it a go. The ages are also a bit rough because it depends on birthdays and performance and needs etc.

Pre school is age 3-6/7
Primary school is age 6/7-15
Secondary school is age 15-18/19/20

Primary school is split in into lower and upper. Subjects are: polish, maths, languages, history, geography, music, art, civics, natural science, computer science, biology, chemistry, physics, PE, religion and ethics, and safety education.
Lower is K1-K3 (age 6/7-10) and they are in same class all the time with the teaching being thematic/mixed together.
Upper is K4-K8 (age 10-15) and they have specialist subject teachers. In K8 they do the E8 exam. Compulsory exams in polish, maths and a foreign language. There’s talk of an option from history, geography, biology, chemistry or physics being introduced, but no one really knows what’s happening. The foreign language can be English, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Italian (and I think kashubian?). The school decides on the languages taught. My 2 are doing English, French and Russian and DC1 wants to choose English as his foreign language exam to sit (for obvious reasons).

Secondary school is a bit tricky as there are 3 types: general, technical and vocational.
General secondary is 4 years.
Technical is 5 years.
Vocational is 3-5 years.

Technical and vocational have trade and industry specific curriculums and exams but also there is the opportunity to sit matura.
General secondary has and academic curriculum which covers polish, maths, foreign languages (English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian, kashubain and Latin), cultural studies, history, history of art, history of music, philosophy, geography, civics, computer science, IT, biology, chemistry, physics, PE and safety education.
There’s a process of dropping subjects (which I’m not clear on because I don’t have DC at that stage of education) and this leads to matura. For matura there are 2 oral exams one for Polish and one in a foreign language, then 3 written exams at the basic level in polish, maths, foreign language and a written exam at the extended level in any subject. They can do extra subjects at the extended level as well (usually 2 or 3). So will end up with 2 oral, 3 basic and 1-4 extended subjects.

All the exams are run by CKE (which is like a central curriculum/exams board). I’m pretty sure there’s a way to translate the website to English, but as I have everything set to polish I don’t have the translate options. I’ve attached the link if you want to have a look.
https://cke.gov.pl

They’re written in polish, but if you want to have a look, then I’ve attached links to a some of 2022 E8 papers.

Maths
https://cke.gov.pl/images/_EGZAMIN_OSMOKLASISTY/Arkusze-egzaminacyjne/2022/matematyka/OMAP-100-2205.pdf

French
https://cke.gov.pl/images/_EGZAMIN_OSMOKLASISTY/Arkusze-egzaminacyjne/2022/jezyk_francuski/OJFP-100-2205.pdf

Polish
https://cke.gov.pl/images/_EGZAMIN_OSMOKLASISTY/Arkusze-egzaminacyjne/2022/jezyk_polski/OPOP-100-2205.pdf

English
https://cke.gov.pl/images/_EGZAMIN_OSMOKLASISTY/Arkusze-egzaminacyjne/2022/jezyk_angielski/OJAP-100-2205.pdf

I hope that answers your question/curiosity.

I'm in Ayrshire (and also a secondary teacher) so feel free to send me a message when you are headed back.

I definitely think you have the right and most realistic plan aiming for S3 based on the info you've shared about polish curriculum. Good luck with the planning.

@PotrzebujeSnu Really fascinating the differences, especially the range of languages on offer. Also interesting how the schools are organised differently with primary being what seems the general education education then specialising for secondary. The curriculum also seems more social studies biased rather then sciences and technology.
I had a look on the link, it auto translated for me, but I couldn’t understand a word of the papers. From a general look the maths looks quite a bit harder and the languages are certainly at a higher level than the Nat 5. Your DC will probably be ahead in those subjects. So you have depth, which is good, but your DC will need to catch up on the breadth in the expressive arts and technologies. It should be too hard for them if they join at S3.
Thank you for sharing. That has certainly helped with my curiosity.

From what you have said, I do now think that S3 would be the most appropriate year. Whether you move for the right time or defer the year.

I have DC in S4 and sitting Nat5s in school year. The other thing to consider is that prelims are often before Christmas and I think it would be quite challenging to start a new school in a different country, then quite quickly have to deal with prelims.

in my experience, the local schools are pretty flexible with new students arriving g from different education systems and will work with you to find the best option. DC is at a RC school which has a reasonably sized group of young people from Polish families - some who have moved between the 2 systems.