Cancel nursery P1 (Scotland) deferred place after starting the deferred nursery year

[thoughtfuldad]

Hi All,

Dad of 5-year-old here in Edinburgh. I was wondering if any of you could help. We have a 5-year-old who we deferred entry to P1 (we felt it was the right thing to do at the time and was advised to do so by the council-run nursery teachers for social and emotional reasons but we were told academically he was fine). He is a start of October 2018 baby. But now at the end of November 2023, it feels like he is more than ready for P1 (he has developed a lot in the last six months).

Also, he is not making any friends this year in his nursery. Every morning he doesn't want to go to nursery and it's a huge struggle to get him there. The other children all seem and look much younger than him and have baby-like faces and just seem generally much younger than him, I think he is now the oldest in his nursery. He doesn't seem to be able to connect with any nursery children this year. His nursery best friends (3 boys) from last year who were roughly the same age as him all moved on to P1 Primary and now it feels (and looks) like he is too old and mature for the kids in his nursery.

He desperately wants to go to "big boy" school himself and keeps talking about it and wants to move on to Primary school and wear school uniform clothes. He is technically very capable and loves building Lego robots, working with leavers, and gears and electronic circuits already. My specialist areas are Mathematics, Physics, and Computer Science so I am able to support and encourage him in those areas. His language skills are very advanced and he can easily hold conversations with older children and adults, and in fact spends his time with older children in the community garden that we have behind the house.

My wife and I are thinking it is best to try and move him to P1 for January 2024 (the start of the second term in P1 in his catchment school). I am thinking that if we leave him in nursery for this academic year then in Primary school he would be about 1.5 years older than the youngest child in his year group and on average probably a year older than most of his peers which might be too big of an age gap and prevent him from connecting and making friendships with his peers as especially even now he seems so advanced in certain areas.

We will chat with the nursery before making a final decision but does anyone know what the procedures are for canceling the funded P1 deferred place at a council-run nursery during the academic year and trying to get their child into P1 Primary for a January start?

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Does your Primary school even have 2 intakes? It's not normal in Scotland to do so, in which case your son will have missed out on half the year of schooling phonics etc which would be difficult to catch up on. Most children are 'bored' of nursery at this stage but if you tLk to nursery they should be able to put more activities in place to help support this.

I can’t see why it wouldn’t be perfectly fine depending on the school to start after Christmas.

At my child’s school p1 is extremely play based and they don’t have homework at all so there really isn’t the huge gap previous posters are on about particularly as he’d have only missed 4 months and already knows the other kids from nursery. There’s a big drive for play based learning for primary 1 across Scotland so most primary schools should be following this.

@sensationalsally I understand, rule is probably the wrong word. I work in early years and while we could get deferrals in our area for those born prior to Jan/Feb it was trickier, we had to provide lots of evidence to the local authority and funding for the additional nursery year was not always guaranteed. Now it is a lot easier with funding etc

It became Law this year rather than it being discretionary at the Council's panel.

I've never known a child defer then move in to P1 in 30 years of being an EYP. I'd be looking at nursery supporting him more and meeting his needs. We let all children settle in nursery and p1 then do shared experiences such as outdoor learning, outside companies coming in. Our children love to catch up with their friends but also make new ones.

I think your first port of call should be nursety.

I don't think your Local Authority would be able to offer you a January place for your child- they won't be staffed for this and financially the nursery place is allocated already so it would be very difficult to change. It's also not the best thing for your son- he is keen to go to "Big School" and his friends talk about uniform but there's a lot more to school than this- by this stage in p1 friendships will be formed, the children will be settled in to routines and in most classes he would have to catch up with so much new learning. There is also only one adult for 20 children as opposed to a ratio of 1-8.
If you were advised he wasn't ready there will have been a good reason for it.
Having said that nursery should be extending his learning and interests, although this absolutely does not mean teaching him to read and do sums! You could ask if it's possible for him to have enhanced transition and visit his school monthly or even weekly?
Every single child I've ever known loved nursery and by p4 were incredibly nostalgic about it!!

This is a nursery problem. None of my kids were deferred as they are all spring born, but my oldest has a birthday within the first few weeks of March - so is only slightly younger than deferred children. His pre-school worked really hard to make sure that the children who would be going to school the following August were stretched and given activities suitable for them. If this is not happening, then start throwing around acronyms like GIRFEC and Learning Journeys and next steps and ask what targets/goals/next steps they have identified for your lad.

Putting him into P1 now is going to be another massive adjustment for him, joining a group of kids who have been together for the last 4-5 months, and have 4-5 months of learning behind them.

In your position I would look to maybe drop the nursery days slightly if this is possible - 2/3 days at nursery and the rest of the time at home? That would keep him in the loop with nursery (and give you some space/time) but also give you the freedom to take him out and visit places, go for walks in the countryside, watch David Attenborough documentaries or whatever.

This is madness, my august 2018 baby, so 8 weeks younger than yours, is thriving in y1 (primary 2). Defo get him into school

Is the nursery he attends a school nursery or a private setting?

If it is the nursery class of the school, ask the ECPs to discuss his profile with the P1 teacher and DHT.

If he is in a private setting, move him into a nursery class within the school he will go to in Aug.

It's not madness and every parent has the right to make a decision for what is best for their child just because your child is doing well doesn't mean its right for another.

Deferral also isn't about the here and now it's about the long course is it right for that child at P7, S4, socially, academically etc. There are many factors which parents take into consideration when deciding to defer.

Your also not in Scotland if your Aug 2018 child is in primary 2! School starts later here as standard.

@berksandbeyond I am guessing you are in England. The Scottish system is different.
Personally I think it’s madness that your Aug 2018 child is into their second year of schooling. Kids start later in Scotland as standard.

Indeed, and Year 1 does not equal Primary 2.

As a teacher who has been both a nursery and a p1 teacher then I would suggest you keep him in nursery. I really doubt the council would allow him to start in January as he has missed a big chunk of learning.

He is unsettled and most likely feels left out as his friends have moved on. I’ve seen this quite a few times with deferred children being bored and also feeling a lot bigger, especially as new 3 year olds start.

If he was able to move into p1 in January then he would have missed all of this transition and wouldn’t have the same settling period as such. I would instead talk to the nursery about your concerns and ask how he is developing and coping whilst he’s in nursery. I would then check about transition between p1 and nursery. Is it a nursery attached to the school? With my school, from February, we do a shared topic with our pre schoolers and p1s with some of the p1s going into nursery for a short time and the nursery children going into p1 classes. They also start attending the younger school assembly.

My main worry would be your child wouldn’t settle in p1, he would be behind and may find it hard to ‘catch up’. Instead I would focus on perhaps changing nursery if his isn’t providing enough challenge.

I would not choose to join school after the first term if at all possible. He’s missed all the orientation and settling introductory work.
I think you should look at other nurseries and/or forest school or clubs (sports etc) where he can mix with older children. Is he at the school preschool? Or private nursery? Some nurseries have more 4/5 year olds than others. Look for one with a good nursery teacher not just childcare staff.

I think it would be quite hard socially for your child to start in January.

It would be a different experience of starting school, where he would be ‘the new kid’ and not starting an experience as part of a peer group.

Could quite easily be overwhelming, especially as he wouldn’t be as familiar with the customs of school.

However, if the council let you do it and your son’s ready for it then if I was you I’d probably do it.

Personally I think that deferring Children has almost become fashionable amongst some people, over the years I have saw lots of kids who are clearly in the wrong peer group.

Nothing sadder seeing a kid who has physically/mentally matured being forced to take part in activities/sports with no real competition.

I know these decisions are mostly taken with what people think to be the child’s best interests at heart but in my opinion unless a child is born in the January/February window, and is behind where they would be expected to be, then they should be in with their designated group.

I’ve never seen the logic of thinking they aren’t as mature as others their age then placing them with children over a year younger than them, just means they learn behaviour from younger kids which can delay them further.

All this talk about friendship groups in P1 is also nonsense, kids that age could have a new best friend every week.

Most ‘friendships’ at this age are driven by the parents.

It wouldn’t take him long to integrate into a P1 group.

Good luck!!

Reception and P1 are pretty close equivalents tbh but P1 move faster than YR so P2 is more like Y1.5- Y2 than Y1 depending on intake.

My DD (August) started reception in England before moving up to Scotland and went into P1 a year later (thanks COVID). In P4 she's working just ahead of where she'd be in Y4 in maths, which is easier to compare topics wise than in English.

Socially she's probably between P4 and P5, her bestie is a P5 but other good friends are P4 (always been in a mixed year composite). I think she's happier as middle of a year than youngest but she wouldn't have suited being oldest in the year (too bossy/cocky) even though if I'd gone to 41.3 she'd gave been in the year below (and an abject nightmare!)

DS is November 2018, absolutely ready for school apart from severe fomo meaning he tries to leave toilet trips too late. He's loving school but is one of if not the youngest in his class, but is one of the tallest and strongest. Wouldn't want him to be joining school now or January though, the pace has really ramped up after a gentle beginning.

If he was deferred for social and emotional development reasons and is struggling socially this year, to me that would be suggesting it was the right decision as he’s clearly having a bit of an issue...

@Kaffiene I am Scottish, but I do indeed live in England, where my child is absolutely thriving. The Scottish education system has many flaws, this might just be one of them!

You are focusing on the wrong things you don't defer due to academic ability.

Ds2 was February birthday. I didn't defer as he was academically ready and desperate to join his big brother in school.

It worked out well in primary. Partly because he was usually in a composite class with the year below so had more children his age to play with

Where it wasn't ideal was his maturity in exam years of secondary school. I do wonder in hindsight if he'd have done better in his exams if he'd taken them a year later

No advice but some solidarity: I am in exactly the same situation (deferred daughter born February 2019)….deeply regretting it. She’s gone from happy and confident to now not wanting to go to nursery, separation anxiety, completely bored, very frustrated with play with younger children, leading to some bossiness. She’s academically very ready, the issue was emotional maturity but I think we made the wrong call too and I’m also investigating the option of starting p1 in January.

As people have said the jump in learning and expectations would be quite big if you try to move your son in January. My youngest in P1 has matured quite a bit in the last 4 months. It's far from certain that your son would be happy after the move. How does he cope with change? Is he quick to make friends?

The other issue is if you're Edinburgh, and in a popular school catchment, the P1 classes may well be all at capacity. You wouldn't get a place even if you can persuade the council to let your child move.

At this point I would try work with the nursery and see if they can make things more challenging and try and integrate your child better within the group. Every kid has a wobble here or there. I think our job is to try and help them through it not bulldoze every obstacle.

There is absolutely no benefit to moving your child in January @Pigeonswalk, supposing there is actually a place in your local school.
The p1 curriculum in Scotland is play based in lots of places but in plenty of others you would be asking your child to catch up with 6 months of reading, writing and number work as well as all the different expectations of school. On top of that there is a lot of research to show that moving school takes children six months or so to recover from- what would be the point?
Parents who are given advice to defer are usually given it as staff can see that the child may not be ready for school and might benefit from more time at nursery. You can't separate this into clear academic and social reasons because in p1 most learning is done through social groups. Saying " my child is having social issues" half way into the "extra" year confirms what the staff have said- it DOES NOT mean that the child should have gone to school!!
Sometimes that extra year can also be used to put in more support or a diagnosis for the child.

Saying my child is having social issues half way into the extra year confirms what the staff have said- it DOES NOT mean that the child should have gone to school!!

How can this be true when the child(ren) have outgrown their peers and are asking to go to school?! We aren't talking about children who are struggling to take turns, can't sit still during story time and are needing more time to really play without 'learning challenges' and directed tasks.

@ihavetaughtforalongtime there's a world of difference between what a child expresses and achieves in the safety and familiarity of home/ nursery and how they will cope with a massive transition into school in January.
What will happen if they don't settle in school? It's not easy to take a child out of school once they've started in Scotland- there's a legal process. What will happen if they don't like that school? Will they just move and chop and change?

The OP and others need to learn more about how the system works- it's much easier to defer, but once you have it's incredibly difficult to change that, even in the local authority funded schools and nurseries.

"How can this be true when the child(ren) have outgrown their peers and are asking to go to school?! We aren't talking about children who are struggling to take turns, can't sit still during story time and are needing more time to really play without 'learning challenges' and directed tasks."

That's a child who can do all this - in nursery possibly as a result of hard work by staff.
They will be confident to start school in August- but could they do it in August 2023? And if so, why was the deferral chosen?