Why do some children sit eight NAT 5s and others only sit six or seven?

[Vettrianofan]

Just that really. DS has a few friends who only sat three or four which is very low, others six or seven. He seems to be the only one with eight NAT5s that I know of at the moment.

Why is there such disparity??

(Oh and just seen it's scotsnet you don't have to explain to me at all- I was intrigued by the title and also wanted to know why some only sat 6 subjects!)

We are in one of those top achieving school areas. My eldest two both did 7 Nat 5s at the end of S4. (9 subjects in S3, dropped to 7 for S4). Youngest child is just starting S4 and will probably do 8 as the school have added Applications of Maths in addition to standard maths for the more able children, or instead of the more abstract Maths for the less able. (Just like it was in my day when Arithmetic and Maths were separate subjects).

Although our school offers a maximum of 7/8, there are some kids who will never be presented for that many. DD who has just left school has a friend with significant challenges academically and who was only presented for her Nat 5 maths and English at the end of S6 (and passed, yay!!).

@OnionBhajis
Hiya!

I thought you may be interested to read my post I put on another thread recently.

In answer to your questions: there is just one English but all three sciences are separate.

Apologies if other Scotsnetters find error in the details of my post below; it's how I see the education system in Scotland. 😊

I'm English (although lived in Scotland for 25 years) and my DCs were born in Scotland so I thought I would give my appraisal of the difference between the two exam systems.

In Scotland, you start school 6 months later and you also finish school six months earlier so you receive a year less in education. That is why Scottish university courses are a year longer than their English equivalents. You attend primary school from age 5 to age 12, then secondary school up to age 17/18. There are no sixth form colleges and you generally attend your nearest school.

In fourth year of secondary school at age 15/16, you take Nat 5 exams which are roughly GCSE level (or Nat 4 for the less able). Many schools only offer six subjects which is far fewer than the number of GCSE offered, however the pupils tend to be a year younger than their English counterparts. This means that pupils choose only four subjects, aside from maths and English which I feel is very early to specialise. They can, however, pick up subjects they have dropped in later years.

The next year is Higher year (fifth year) which is the most important year in Scotland. Able pupils will take 5 highers at once; and maths and English are almost compulsory. You then have a free choice of another 3 subjects. Highers are considered slightly harder than AS levels (in UCAS pts)

The gold standard for university entry in Scotland is 5As at higher (there are no A stars). Around 2500 pupils achieve this in a typical year. For popular courses, if a student achieves these grades, they are likely to receive an unconditional offer (many less popular courses have lower grade requirements).

Some students will go to university at this stage, but they would only be 16/17 years old so many stay on at school for another year (sixth year).

In sixth year, students can pick up subjects they have previously dropped and take extra Nat 5s, Highers or move on to advanced highers. Classes contain mixed ages so you could have 15 year olds working alongside 18 year olds taking the same subject and exam level.

Advanced highers are the most difficult exams in schools in Scotland and an A grade in these attracts the same UCAS points as an A star at A level. Most students will take one or 2 advanced highers alongside extra Highers in subjects they dropped earlier on, but the most able can take up to 4 advanced highers.

If students then apply for uni in sixth year, they already have the achieved higher grades to enable them to apply to Scottish unis and receive any potential unconditional offers.

In summary, I think the Scottish exams are high stress due to three years of consecutive exams, but conversely the last year tends to be the least stressful if students have received a good selection of higher results in fifth year.

Many schools offer very limited advanced higher options: Highland schools may only offer a selection of six subjects at advanced higher level for example, so many students will just study highers as their top level.

Private schools often have kids sitting 9

I really am, thank you

Great summary Aurea!

I didn't do AHs when at school. Only left with five Highers then on to uni after sixth year.

You have summed the Scottish education system up really well @Aurea

I didn't know there was a difference. My DC only did 5 at nat5 - that was the norm in their school.

Ah fab thanks for the explanation 😊.

Sounds really good flexibility for the highers but can be very narrow for Nat 5s.

Thanks again for taking the time to let me know 😊

Also in 6th year you can do ‘crash’ highers.
Which are subjects you do not have any previous qualification for.
Principal teachers of departments will email students they think could manage them due to previous results in a similar subject.
Or a student can approach them direct to ask.
e.g. My eldest took a crash higher Admin and IT in 6th year as she had a higher in computing and a years computing games course at college already passed and the business principal teacher felt she had the ability to do it (she got a B)
Her friend did a crash higher History as she already had a higher geography.

My DD1 did 6 N5s this year as she has a specialised subject she does at school which takes up the periods that would be used for 2 other subjects. School offers 8 subjects for all pupils in S3-4. Not all pupils sit 8 N5s though especially if unlikely to pass, do N4s instead for some subjects. A handful of the most able do 9 N5s (Application of Maths being the added one).

It's a very big standard state secondary.

*bog

Yes @8misskitty8 both of my older 2 did this. DS did Engineering in S3 but dropped it at the start of S4 and was allowed to crash the Higher in S6 based on the fact he had done well in Higher Maths. DD did Highers in Geography and History in S5 and crashed Modern Studies higher in S6 having not done it since S2 - the teachers thought that many of the essay writing skills were transferrable.

Both also picked up another Nat 5 to do in S6 - DD did Business Studies, DS did RMPS.

Misskitty, can you explain what a NPA actually is? Does it count the same as a National 4 or 5 course? My dc has been offered the chance to do one.

An NPA is a national progression award. Level 5 is the same level as a national 5/ standard grade credit level.
My girls did the same computing games design and development NPA level 5 in different years.
They completed a variety of modules that made up the course, there is no exam at the end as it is like most college courses. Continuous assessment and projects or presentations through the year.
They get marked and you get 2 chances for ‘remediation’ or you don’t complete the course.

Level 6 is the same level as a higher.
As it was a school/college partnership, only school age children in the classes from other schools.
It means they also get a chance to see what college is like.
My dd liked it as if she completed her work before the end of the class she could just go or if she needed the toilet she could go without asking etc.

Thank you! I'm still wondering a bit, it's the same level as National 5 (etc) but is it equivalent to a N5 course? I know you can do N5 units that are the same level but not equivalent to an N5 course. Sorry to ask again! It's sounds very interesting, your dd's one.

You generally have the option of going straight into second year at Scottish universities if you have done enough relevant advanced highers (or A levels) though not many people chose to do this. Scottish degrees are 4 years because the starting level of knowledge is assumed to be the level of highers (not advanced highers).

It’s hard to explain but SCQF level 5 is the where national 5 and NPA 5 sit on the progression ladder. They say is an equivalent LEVEL.
However a national 5 in a subject covers a range of topics but an NPA is more focussed on a few areas and in more depth.

Both my girls did national 5 computing science and then the higher. (younger one is just starting the higher)
They would have done a bit of games design as part of those courses.
But the NPA in computing games design and development was just focussed on that.

I played a few of their games (they did everything, graphics, music coding etc) and find it amazing how those collection of numbers, letters and symbols became games !
Much more work and information learned but in a specific core area.

So although an equivalent level The NPA is a specific core area so couldn’t be taken instead of a national 5 computing science of its computing science you need.

Doing that NPA as well as Nat 5 and higher computing though means my girls have more qualifications in the Computing games design and development area than someone who only did Nat 5 and higher.

Ds did a Scqf level 7 course with Strathclyde uni but for just 10 credits = 100 hours of learning, with just some quizzes and a pass at the end of it. Where an AH is 32 credits at scqf level 7, but is also a graded exam so still very different.

This has some info on NPAs. https://www.sqa.org.uk/sqa/24071.11440.html

Thank you both, I definitely think I understand it better now! Sounds like a good option too.

My kids are at a “top performing”
school and it is the norm to do 7 N5s. The school timetable can’t facilitate 8 N5s, it’s not offered to anyone. However, my
son was allowed to do 6 N5s and a Higher in S4.
I have friends whose kids could have easily sat 7 N5s but the school only allowed 6!

DS crashing Higher Biology in S5. He got A for Chemistry NAT 5 and B for Physics at NAT 5. He has no interest in doing Physics as a Higher a nd wanted to take Biology instead.

Interesting how schools over Scotland have so many different approaches. Wouldn't have known until reading this thread. It's been an eye opener.

Username checks out 🙄

@8misskitty8 thanks for also talking about your experience of your DC taking NPAs. I will ask DS if others in his school get that option as that might appeal to him better than staying on for S6. Getting experience of college life sounds like it could be something he would enjoy.