Conflicting goals: voting for the SNP but not actually wanting independence?

[Chocchops72]

So I tend to watch Scottish politics from a distance, as I live in France. I’ve been out of the UK for 20+ years, but was born in Dundee and lived in Scotland all my life before then (DH too) and all our family are still there.

watching the demise of Nicola Sturgeon and all the ‘what next?’ questions that are swirling around… I wonder what Scottish voters want? The SNP, with independence as their #1 raison d’être, have been very successful at winning elections - but ultimately Scotland didn’t want independence. How could the SNP as a political party ever square that circle? It looks like Scots want to be governed by a local, ‘home grown’ organisation, but don’t actually want to leave the Union. What kind of political party could achieve that? Could there be (is there?) a party that is ‘Scottish’ and not part of any of the big UK parties, but which doesn’t have independence as a goal? What would that look like? Would you vote for it? National interest without independence?

They have not been that successful at winning elections - they rely on the Greens to give them a majority. And they don’t want to ‘square the circle’ - they want people to vote for independence which is why that is all they have whittered on about for the last forever. It is also handy to be able to blame their multitudinous failings on ‘Westminster’ rather than take ownership of their mismanagement. The problem is how poor the vast majority of MSPs are regardless of party.

The lack of good quality Politicians is also a problem for the UK Parliament. I think relatively poor pay (to attract people who are otherwise successful in their fields), poor treatment of politicians and view of them in the public mind, local or party ‘Cabals’ controlling selection processes, reduction in the feeling that we should ‘give something back to society’ all turn away/fail to attract the people we need. Local council CEOs get paid more than the Prime Minister without all the crap the Prime Minister gets. More needs to be done to get good quality MPs/MSPs and I think raising age to become one and requiring them to have at least five years experience in pretty much anything that is not politics would be a start. Get rid of the hangover from student politics.

I think there is a high proportion of the Scottish voting public who don’t want independence but have voted SNP because they think the endless grievance whining has won more money out of Westminster for Scotland. The shocking decline in public services of late might make these people have a rethink though.

I know lots of people who vote SNP and are vehement no voters. The main reasons being to keep the Tories out and as a PP stated there's a perception that a Scottish only party "stands up for Scotland" more in Westminster than a UK wide party with Scottish MPs would.

Personally I think it's playing with fire to vote that way as every SNP vote is seen as support for independence.

Yes that's why the current chat from both the SNP and Salmond is along the all under one banner broad church for Indy stuff because they recognise that they win elections but haven't got a stable majority consensus for Indy, much as at times they've appeared to have the numbers.

The SNP have delivered many good centre left policies partly enabled by funding from WM - of course people with centre left views will vote for those policies in elections whilst not necessarily wanting to take the funding risks of Indy.

Yes @Rainbowshit and it works the other way too. It's really skewed Scottish politics.
I know a few people who are definitely not traditional conservative voters and wouldn't vote for them under any other circumstances, but they do it to make sure there's maximum unionist voices to stand up to snp.
I honestly think if Labour was still in charge in Holyrood we wouldn't have as many conservative MSPs.

I think the SNP successfully moved into the space once occupied by Labour - in essence what @user567543 said in her last paragraph.

Oh absolutely - which is exactly why Alistair Campbell is such a fan of Nicola and the SNP, Indy aside.

Agree. I know other who have held their nose and voted Tory to keep the SNP out. Constitutional issues are ruining Scotland.

So is there an option to vote for a left-leaning party, which is seen as sufficiently Scottish / not part of a UK wide party but didn’t have independence as it’s main goal? Do you think one could emerge? Or that the SNP could drop independence as its main goal?

i agree that the talent pool is looking pretty shallow atm.

The answer to your question is no, certainly not a viable one.

And it's very, very difficult for a new party to emerge anywhere in the UK and Europe. Alliance For Unity in Scotland was a newcomer and it failed to make a dent. In some ways, Alba is new but remains a fringe group.

The key to understanding much of Scottish politics is to look at it as the Ulsterisation of Scotland. And this shouldn't be all that surprising since Ulster and Scotland have an extremely long history. As far back as 1,500 years. Glasgow is Scotland's Belfast - a lot of similar history and similarities between them.

So, the politics is Unionist v Nationalist in Scotland. And will be for as long as the constitutional issue dominates.

I’m a bit of a floating voter, I very much make my decision based on the party manifesto and where I am in my life. My wants from a party were different when I was younger to now when I have children and elderly parents. I value childcare and social care provisions more now. I look for different offering whereas when I
was younger I voted for a party that left more money in my pocket.

That means more recently I’ve been an SNP voter, but not an independence voter at all. SNP ticked more boxes. But I have to say the thought of another referendum has made me reconsider again and in all honestly I don’t even think I’d bother voting in the next election at all. I genuinely feel that no party offers enough for me to gain my vote. I’d be voting for the sake of it, or tactical voting.

Margarita45 if no party grabs you then you should look for a candidate who does. Candidates may often sway me over party anyway and I think part of the flaws of the Scottish Parliament is the promotion of party over constituency representative.

After the horror that is the Scottish Greens, be very careful where you place your list votes.

The furorer over the awful GRR shows the importance of the Tories even if you are firmly left wing - all legislation needs to be examined carefully by people across the political spectrum. It must be tested and critically examined. If your Parliament is just different shades of red all on the left then that removes proper challenge and pulling people back to the centre. Or vice versa to the right.

I very much agree with this. The SNP have stuffed all their committees with their stooges so everything gets waved through without proper scrutiny.

There needs to be a robust opposition to keep them in check.

Alistair Jack is clearly a idiot who cares not a jot for Scotland, but I could kiss his vile Tory feet for pushing back on the nonsense laws that the SNP (backed by the Greens) have been pushing for.

GRA anyone?
Another ‘civic and joyous’ Indy ref?
And hopefully he’ll get the ludicrous DRS binned too.

Funnily enough I’ve been voting independent candidates since time began in local council elections, but when it comes to a General Election the candidates are quite simply unknown names on a list.

There doesn’t seem to be the campaigning of years gone by anymore. It’s all young supporters of the candidates chapping doors now. All pretty faceless for me.

I know I could and should take the time to research them, but in all honestly I don’t have the time. I feel like if they want my vote they should work for it really.

I am the same @Margarita45 none of them inspires me much, I always vote but never with much enthusiasm for the last 10 years at least. I do agree that all parties add value to scrutinising legislation.

I've voted Conservative in every Holyrood election for that reason. In Westminster anyone who has the best chance of defeating the SNP candidate gets my vote so have been Tory and Lib Dem.

There is no-one I positively want to vote for so my vote usually goes for the least worst option or to the person who stands a chance of beating the SNP, which is a terrible state of affairs to be in.

We really need a strong opposition to shine a spotlight on the ongoing failings and force the SNP to be more transparent but there is simply no-one capable or effective enough at the moment.

When I still had the vote in the UK, I voted Labour in Edinburgh West (I think that was the constituency), I think we were out of time by the time of the big SNP votes.

It's a dire state of affairs tbh. Surely every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence? If only because that's how they decide to interpret it - irrespective of the motivation of the person casting the vote.

I just googled and the SNP received 46.5% of the votes in the Scottish Parliament with a turnout of 55.8%.

We know that in the 2014 Independence Referendum, 44.7% of people voted yes with a turnout of 84.59%.

The SNP don't actually have over 50% of the votes in the Scottish Parliament, they have the majority of votes but not enough to reach the threshold needed to win another referendum.

I wonder if the number of Yes supporters has gone down since Brexit? I know I was a yes voter in 2014 but would vote no now after seeing the fallout there.

I would love Scottish Labour to make a comeback, I wonder if the SNP vote will decrease when NS is gone and the SNP have a less charismatic leader.

If labour could find a way to re enter Europe in some capacity and minimise the many downsides of Brexit...

I voted No in both devolution referenda and obviously No in 2014. Since 2014 I've moved to the right and the Labour party to the left so I'm more comfortable about voting Conservative.

I don't really understand why the SNP took so many votes off Labour, if you want a left wing party, and goodness only knows why if you are a unionist (rather than a Unionist) you'd vote for the SNP. There's 3 other options.

On gender issues , as far as I'm concerned the Lib Dems might be bonkers but are still not as stratospherically bonkers as the SNP.

Have never understood people who are anti independence but vote SNP ,but lots do

Sturgeon herself has said, "A vote for the SNP is not a vote for another independence referendum."

Scottish Nationalists try to have their cake and eat it on that point....