senior schools no longer allowed to ask for money?

[CharityShopChic]

DD is in S6 and is taking a Nat 5 in practical cake craft. School has been running this course for several years and it is very popular with s6 students who have a decent set of Highers in the bag and want something a bit more light hearted. We have never been asked to contribute anything towards cost of ingredients, although when DD was doing Home Ec in S1/2 we were asked for around £15 per pupil per year to cover supplies.

DD reports that as of next year, school are no longer going to offer practical cake craft as it's too expensive. And that school are not allowed to ask for money from parents to cover costs. This, apparently, is a Scotland-wide thing? (DD has form for getting the wrong end of the stick so thought i'd ask for clarification).

School - which is in one of the areas which probably immediately springs to mind when you say "leafy middle class suburb" - has already had to stop offering Fashion/Textiles at Nat 5 and Higher because they can't get a teacher, and because of materials. This is an area where there is a very low percentage of families on free school meals, and where parents are happy to stick their hands in their pocket to the tune of £20, £50 or £100 a year. Many are paying £20+ an hour for tutors. I totally understand that in other areas this is not the case and there should be a discussion about funding these "expensive" subjects for schools with a deprived intake. But it could also be argued that these practical subjects are incredibly important for some young people - thinking of a child in DD's year who has significant academic disadvantages, is unlikely to get Nat 5s in English and Maths, but who is thriving in Cake Craft and Practical Cookery classes.

There has to be a better way of doing this than simply saying "if some children can't do it, then none can".

There has always been different subjects at different schools depending on budgets and resources. It is not ideal, but nothing new. Starting providing subjects only available to children if parents pay is a slippery slope - what next, we can provide computing science if all parents pay £200/year for it, I could afford and would have paid if ds could have done it, but it is free state education and should stay that way.

Scottish schools are no longer allowed to charge for curricular activities. So in this case your daughter is correct.

I do appreciate the slippery slope aspect of this. But going back to when I was at school in the 80s we were asked to bring 50p for home ec or whatever. It's not a new thing. Perhaps the Scot Gov needs to look at some sort of pupil premium like they have in England/Wales

I don't think it's government policy as such but there is a general movement around reducing the 'cost of the school day' for families. It was initially led by the Poverty Alliance. Encouraging schools to think about all the things that might add additional costs such as materials, ingredients, expensive uniform or kit lists, charity days, trips etc. The premise of it is good, not child should be left out or feel shame because they can't pay for something. Stories of kids skipping school on non-uniform days because they've no clothes that fit properly, it's heartbreaking. But I can also see how it could be detrimental if children end up missing out on things altogether.

When I was at secondary around 15yrs ago, we had to pay £10 per term for home Ec ingredients but the teacher had a list of kids who didn't need to pay. I guess they just average out everyone else's contribution to cover it. But it's more difficult now as even those who were not struggling before are facing some kind of financial difficulty or at least feeling the squeeze. Schools need to be mindful of that in what they ask families for.

In the last week my S1 has asked for £5 for craft, £3 for PE trip and £18 for panto...it adds up! Requests are often last minute too.

We had this in primary with music tuition. All kids in P4 tested for musical ability. About 9 or 10 in each class assessed as having a "musical ear" but only enough instruments/tutor for 2 (School said it's not just purchase price but servicing and maintenance) So the other 8 get nothing.
Meanwhile colleague living in another council area is able to pay small amount each term towards group tuition and DC instrument rental.

Our council wouldn't d that as it as unfair. Preferred children with a musical ear to go without

budgets are tightening and I suppose putting a strain on offering options for children.

I don’t know what pupil premium in England is.

further education colleges still provide vocational courses though and are a better route for many children: desperately needed from what my hairdresser says and what I read in the newspapers. shame they don’t get to try these out though at school.

its needs real investment and resources to get it right for every child.

The way I understand it is that schools get a cash premium for every child whose family income is less than X amount. That money can be used towards subsidising school trips or other expenses, or put in extra staff for support or whatever. I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but it would mean that a school in a very deprived area with a high % of kids on free school meals has more cash than a school in a more affluent area.

It just seems that the Scottish government - and councils - take an all or nothing approach. It's like the free school meals for P1-P3 and the baby boxes. Rather than doing the work to identify the people who need the additional support, they waste money giving a freebie to people who don't want or need it.

It's like that pic which was doing the rounds that treating everyone the same isn't equality - equality is providing extra support to the ones most in need, to bring them up to the level of the least in need, rather than giving everyone the same.



@CharityShopChic thanks for info that sounds like a good idea to me.

if these enriching subjects are removed it’s not good. I think if you can afford supporting children’s hobbies privately and live in an area where this is available then do it.

Unfortunately it’s often not cool for mid/older teens to participate or try something new in or out with school. It can be inappropriate for school aged children to attend a a club for adults: often the adults don’t want the hassle of interacting with the youngsters and then there’s safeguarding issues etc.

I do think that the Scottish government have form though for closing the attainment gap in education, not by raising everyone up to the highest standard but lowering the top down.

this is perhaps just another example.

I'll try and find links when I'm home but this is gov policy. Schools now also get pupil equity funding which is very similar to pupil premium.

I work in nursery and since 2020 we haven’t been able to charge snack money under the healthy snack fund as the government gives us 36p per day per head. However prices are going up and the amount we can order is starting to be a struggle. We have to buy food for children with allergies too which often costs a lot more as we can’t order their milk from the milk delivery so have to go to Tesco.

PEF in Scotland is very similar to pupil premium in England but is allocated and used slightly differently.

I had to buy my son a novel for Higher English. I didn’t mind but was quite surprised that I was asked to do this.

I think it's in line with cost of the school day policy. Our school raised this wrt Christmas jumpers.

I sympathise with you OP, but would worry those less fortunate would suffer.

Scottish schools are no longer allowed to charge for anything deemed as a core curriculum cost. It was introduced last August, money was given to councils to off-set loss of income but the funding is not sufficient when taking into account inflation and supply issues. Other practical subjects are affected too, eg design and tech, Art etc.

As schools have devolved budgets they can make the choice to stop offering courses if not economically viable. Which then limits choice under CfE but no one in government seems to acknowledge that.

Does that mean they also can’t charge for curricular trips? Our primary school still has had no trips (other than to the local library or church that are walkable) since before Covid. I thought it might just be that the cost of coaches was so high, but maybe this is part of the reason too?

AFAIK in Scotland trips have never been considered part of the core curriculum, which is why we have the "pay or you don't go" thing, whereas in England it's "voluntary contributions".

My senior school age kids have both been on trips this term - one to the panto, the other to a residential centre for 2 nights. The residential one was done by public transport (bus, train) as this was cheaper than hiring a bus - but the kids are S5/S6 so not wee ones. Bus prices are through the roof at the mo and I think that's what's putting a lot of schools off.

Trips to panto are seen as a non-curricular extra, and schools sometimes use funds from PTA etc to cover the expenses for children who would otherwise be unable to go.

A theatre trip for seniors, linked to drama / English courses would be viewed differently.

No, pupils can still contribute to trips.

I thought they might not be able too, but if they can it’s probably more that they don’t want to do a trip that some wouldn’t be able to afford (and there might be too many who can’t afford it for the school to subsidise). In any case, it’s a similar outcome to above, that something that used to enrich education has been cut because the school don’t want to ask parents to pay for it. I understand that perspective, you don’t want people to be left out, but you do want a good, full education with trips and opportunities.

My DD did practical cake craft two years ago alongside her Advanced Highers. I think we were asked for £50 in two instalments of £25. She did Health and Food Tech at Nat 5 as well in fourth year which was about £20, I don’t remember. It’s a shame it won’t be offered anymore.

If you can afford it try paying for all the kids to do it as a donation - or have the parents club in. If it’s inclusive then it might not be a problem? I’m in England so prob not the same but we did this when the local primary tried to stop teaching a programming class for similar reasons - a few of the parents clubbed together to pay and now it’s a tradition.

Well of course it depends on how much the trip is - how much the school can cover versus pupil payment. In every school I've been in we've had annual trips for each class. School covers some or all of the cost , pupils contribute if needed for that specific trip.

Yes, the annual curricular-linked trip was usual for us too, it’s just that these haven’t happened since before covid here, and it isn’t clear to me if they will return. Possibly the cost of living and cost of buses have ruled them out for now, but at least it’s not policy that schools can’t charge. I’m sure it’s easier in cities when you can walk or get public transport to the trip, but you would need a chartered bus here so they’re just not happening. Well, not in Primary schools anyway. I hope they come back, they’re so important for children who don’t otherwise get the opportunity to see the world outside their wee neighbourhood.