BBC news saying Scotland discussed possibility of wealthy being expected to pay for nhs treatment

[Ruizy]

Feeling a bit horrified at the prospect of this proposal. Surely it would just mean those above a certain wage would have to take out bupa style insurance. But not sure what would happen to emergency care.

Social care isn’t cheap for the user though. It’s possible to use a fair chunk of an asset to pay.

So if staff are paid more how much more to the user? It’s a bit like childcare, low wages but high cost to user.

Someone will likely say more state funding - someone’s paying though so who

Pensioners do pay tax at the same rate as everyone else. The only ones who don't have income below the threshold.
I agree that bungalows are the best option for elderly people, but they are expensive to build so there aren't enough of them.
Retirement flats are quite good but disproportionately expensive and the service charges are huge.

Increase wages, totally agree but a carer is likely to be on about 10.50 to 11.50, a fully qualified nurse, with a loan to pay back, staff parking and registration fees is on about 13.85.

So how much does a carer earn before a nurse says I'm better off as a carer?

On affordability/who pays, we have no choice, pay more for health or have no system, people are voting with their feet.

Personally, i'd bring SC back under the NHS or at least local council, whats the point in having 1000s of individual privately run agencies all duplicating everything? it can't be efficient

We do not have enough carers. There si a crisis. That is what leads to people stuck in hospitals for far too long. There are only two ways to solve it. Immigration, or pay higher wages.

Self funding neighbour has been in a care home for almost a year and pays £3.5k per month. Savings are almost gone and his wife is still living in their tiny bungalow. Her mental health is completely destroyed due to the stress and worry. She has to attend every hospital appointment with him, including every single time there is a problem with his catheter because nobody but the hospital can deal with it. She is absolutely exhausted with it all.

That is so hard. I was imagining selling asset to pay but extremely hard if one of you needs care and the other is in a flat / house. I’m not sure what happens when savings go?

There are only two ways to solve it. Immigration, or pay higher wages

Disagree, there isn't the workers in the UK, its hard work, people in their 50s generally speaking, wont be able to do it & if you take young people from another sector, who does their job?
Comes back to SM membership/FOM.
Needs to be wage increases too of course.

The state has to pay once the individual can't, but it is the self funders who subdidise the state funded residents to the tune of almost 50%. It isn't sustainable.

DM moved in with her husband into the care home, in this scenario. We were in the process of selling their house when they both died. Neither would want to have been moved into a state funded home, so their joint weekly payment was 2K (!!!!).

That’s hard. When pay ‘they’ need to pay more, asset sellers are paying a fortune already. It’s not sustainable really.

The thing is that few want to work in a care home. The pil’s home paid very good wages and t&c, but the only people they could get were women in their 60s or school leavers who left asap. The fact has to be faced that dementia care is not helping mildly dotty little old ladies and reminiscing about a wartime childhood. It is dealing with anger, distress, double incontinence, heavy lifting, spoon-feeding…

Let’s be honest - most of us would choose any other job. If I were a young woman I’d rather have a baby than slog away doing this. And most people (including ones I have seen on MN) throw up their hands in horror at the thought of men doing care work.

I have nothing but admiration for the male carers in my parent's care home.
They were sensitive to the need for privacy and dignity of the vulnerable female residents and conducted themselves accordingly.
However, we all know there is a certain type of man who is not suitable to be in that kind of role, so safeguarding is necessary.

And if no one was Available to feed him? What then, does he starve?

Little wonder so few men, who would make great carers and nurses, never go into this sector with that level of suspicion thrown at them.

Safe guarding should apply equally to both men and women, no one sex is immune from great cruelty or worse.

Female carers can indeed be cruel and violent but, statistcally, men as a class are a greater risk.
Of course stealing and neglect are also problems and I have come across those frequently.

Sorry. We are getting away from the subject of the thread.

@MichelleScarn I couldn't have put it better myself. They are a shambles

@Musicaltheatremum great and what they will move to England where the cut off is 50k....oh yeah I bet that'll be a real incentive. That 1.5k difference per year

Just read bits of the report, and mentioned was some people paying for prescriptions.

I believe in Scotland they are free for all? If so, that is stupid.

In all the UK there should be a root and branch shake-up of prescriptions. Mil went to the doctor every week, and happily received a prescription for an ailment. There was no review of her medications. The prescriptions continued for years. When I cleared out the pil’s house medicine was stuffed into every cupboard, drawer, the garage… I collected 27 carrier bags of drugs - including vast rolls of paracetamol ( available at Asda for next to nothing) . No one had ever checked if she were taking them nor how the drugs impacted on each other. I believe this problem is replicated in nearly every surgery.

@ThighMistress It may be she should have been taking them. I know there is an issue with people prescribed medication, not taking it, but who keep picking it up as they are afraid there GP will realise they are not taking it and tell them off. I spoke to a GP about this as I found out a relative was doing this and he said it could be an issue with older people.
Compliance with medication where you need to take it every day for life is less common that you would think.

It may be religious institutions or charities step in. I do know in China parents can sue their adult children if they do not support them. Legally adult children have to financially support and help their parents if needed.
So it is really not comparable to contrast China to the UK.

just read the whole thread and what a great debate. So much to think about - really so many big issues we all need to address. The way we live and die is totally different from when the NHS was created.

we live in England and want to move to Scotland but worry about the future tax burden.

In Italy personal care must be provided by the family: if you cannot or don’t wish to you can pay ladies to feed/wash/shave the patient.

This does rely on those people being available, however. In the UK I don’t know if there are people willing to do this.

It certainly shouldn't be down to charities or religious organisations to feed people in hospitals.

Then throw into the mix lots of dietary requirements and in some cases textures.

just read the whole thread and what a great debate. So much to think about - really so many big issues we all need to address. The way we live and die is totally different from when the NHS was created.

It has been a great and informative debate, it is just the kind of open debate the country should be having about the NHS. Emotion needs to be taken out of it and things looked at objectively and no reluctance to broach a new idea or different way of doing things, then the pros, cons, benefits and difficulties of that idea can be looked at and discussed. Look at systems in other countries, can we learn from them? You are right, we are living in far, far different times than when the NHS was created and what it was created for then, we need to reassess what we have, what we expect, what we want, what we need and the ins and outs of financing.