Any amateur genealogists lurking researching Scottish families?

[BinBandit]

I'm just getting back into interest with this but a total amateur. Years ago I made a start on genes Reunited and had a basic tree which I'd paid for credits with Scotland's people to help get evidence for (birth death and marriage certs).

so about 10 years later I've decided to spend a bit more time on this and signed up to a basic membership of ancestry.com. I spent my free trial time and the first month taking details from other trees and from census information.

I'm starting to get to the point where I can't rely on other people's trees as things aren't feeling right. I couldn't get any of the certificate info or more recent census info and I thought I probably needed to upgrade my membership level, which I've now done. However, I'm no further forward in getting anything and I'm not sure if it's because it's Scottish records, if I'm not doing it right or if that's just the way it is for the whole UK. Would I be as well ditching Ancestry now?

Can anyone enlighten me? I'm back to the 1700s and have no non Scots yet!

I also started doing some family history last year but was using Find My Past and Scotland's People. You might find you can access Ancestry and/or Find My Past free at your local library or remotely using your library membership - that's how I reduced the cost of it.

You might find it worthwhile to contact the archive service in the area your family is from. I also used the index to obituaries in the local paper which I found on the library/archive site in the area my maternal ancestors were from.

Would also suggest googling to see if there is a family history society which might be able to help. ?

Thanks 😊, lots of good tips. Family is from all over, Shetland to the Borders and everywhere in between. Also doing DHs at the same time and his is similarly dispersed. He has some Irish background which we though was a lot more recent than it is proving to be - i'm back quite a few generations and no sign yet. It just gets a bit frustrating as I'm now pretty sure that ancestry doesn't have Scottish records in the same way that it seems to do for rUK. DH's mum used to keep showing us this picture of a sister she had that had died at age 3 or 4 ish and kept telling us how much she loved her, I'd love to be able to put a record to the photo as MiL developed Alzheimer's and cancer before I started getting into this. It would have been good to get some better information from her and she would have enjoyed telling us about it. I've searched for her sister with a decent margin for birth and death years and she doesn't seem to exist as far as ancestry is concerned. I'll need to look at other websites. I work full time so just doing bits in the evenings and weekends so it's far easier for me to do it at home rather than the library. Maybe when I retire i'll be able to spend more time and go and visit places rather than jumping into Google maps!

We have no living parents on either side so are relying a lot on our own memory and tales told.

Hope you get on well with yours. I should probably stop trying to go further and further back and start concentrating a bit more on the people I already have, it's pretty fascinating. I identified a relative who died (one of only 70) in a battle in Portugal in 1808, the same year his son was born.

Is a day trip to the Scotland’s People centre in Edinburgh feasible? It’s only open weekdays but you get limitless viewings of civil, church and census records for the £15 day visit fee. You can then pay extra to get a copy of the document if you want (though I tend to just transcribe the info).

Also not sure if you’re aware but the searches on the Scotland’s People website are also now free. A few years ago they charged just to see a list of basic results but now you can see a name, year and place without a charge so you can be more certain you’ve got the right record before paying the fee to view/save the record.

I’ve found Scotland’s People invaluable for researching Scottish records. I have an Ancestry subscription but it’s been of limited use. For example the pre 1911census records are on both Ancestry and Scotland’s people but I’ve found quite a few errors in their indexes which make search results less reliable. And then you can’t see the original record on Ancestry, only on Scotland’s People.

Thanks, I'm thinking about cancelling ancestry as I just can't get a decent use of it for viewing records but Scotland's people works out quite expensive and I think you could rattle up a big bill quite quickly. A day trip to the Centre seems more cost effective but I think i'd need to be really prepared and have the tree (or at least bits of it) on paper as I don't fancy trying to work it on my phone.

I have also discovered (as you mention) that you can get a basic detail on the website so I've spent this evening sorting out my mums siblings as I was just guessing DOBs etc. and I've been able to add in middle names etc. I've been starting with the marriages as I generally know either surnames (men) or just forenames for the women so it's helped me get the right person to start with. All bar one had a middle name and the middle names are usually other surnames from prior generations. That was quite satisfying.

That's going to be less useful without viewing the images as I go further back as I can't rely on my own knowledge. There are obviously mistakes on my Dad's side siblings based on information from other trees. I know he had a brother John and sister Elizabeth but the other couple of trees have no sister and a brother william John which could be John, but then there is another John with a different DoB. Parents are a match and they have more unusual names. Who knows, but I am enjoying it.

Oh and it doesn't help when my mums 3 sisters all went by nicknames, I'd guessed correctly with two of them (ubiquitous Margaret and Elizabeth) but the 3rd one as Ena was a mystery. Could have been anything with Ena on the end. Turns out it was Alexandrina. It's definitely her as the middle name is one of her mothers middle names (which are previous maiden names further up the tree) and the age and marriage all fit perfectly.

Yes, it is quite satisfying when you finally find the people you’re looking for.

One other free resource that might be worth checking is familysearch.org. From memory it’s most useful for late 19th century births and marriages. It’s not a complete index but what is there is fairly reliable.

Good luck with your research!

Thanks again, I'll take a look. Good luck with your research too!

Hi @BinBandit Glad you're enjoying your research - it can be frustrating. I did find the "member trees" bit of Ancestry quite useful but have to say i found FindMyPast easier to navigate and use. I was looking at dh's family and they are south of the border though.

The free part of Scotlands People is useful to do a bit of initial digging - as you've found.

I would say that although compulsory registration was introduced in the mid 19th century I'm not certain there was 100% compliance immediately. I have found similar to you that sometimes births/deaths were not registered especially of infants/very young children.

I agree regarding names - the frequent use of Mary, John, William shows a distinct lack of imagination and makes family history challenging. I had one family where the first son named William died as a small child and the parents after having 7 or 8 more children then had another son who they also called William. I know also of friends doing similar research who've found grandchildren passed off as children of a family to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy. It is lots of fun though - great way to waste a LOOOOT of time😃

"I spent my free trial time and the first month taking details from other trees and from census information.

I'm starting to get to the point where I can't rely on other people's trees as things aren't feeling right."

Having said what you did at the first underlined part of above, I am delighted you then came to your senses said what you did at the second underlined part.

Taking details from other trees can lead to a multitude of issues, unless you check and satisfy yourself of the accuracy of the entries, ideally using original source documents.

Unfortunately, far too many trees copy and perpetuate incorrect information.....sometimes so many times that it starts to feel as if it must be correct. Hints are often accepted as fact, added to trees and never checked, even when it would be quite clear from even a cursory glance at the records that something wasn't quite right.

thank you both, it's feeling like it's going to be an expensive hobby!

Great tips.

It's also not just in the far past that the same name occurs in a sibset. I worked with a guy years ago who will maybe be about 40 now and he and his brother had the exact same name and were only a couple of years apart. e.g. he was John Ross Smith known as Ross Smith and his younger brother was John Ross Smith known as John Smith. His dad was John (no idea of the middle name) and was unhappy that his eldest wasn't being called John and his mum insisted on the use of Ross as i think it was her deceased brothers name or something. Anyway, a nightmare for any future family tree digging.

I'll leave my tree as it is for now but I'm going back to the beginning and verifying each level and adding in details that I know from my own experience and filling it out rather than racing back. I'm thinking of sharing it with my older siblings to see if it refreshes any information that they might have

My dad was orphaned as a young boy so that's even more challenging. I know his parents and g'parents are definitely correct as I did those with actual documents in my older tree. I'm more struggling with his siblings. I also know he was in and out of children's homes for a while so I wondered if I might be able to get any info on that anywhere but obviously far too recent for any census info.

I'll have a wee dig tonight again. FamilySearch wasn't doing anything for me so far but I'll keep trying with maybe older records.

I'm a professional genealogist rather than an amateur one but will reply anyway...

few points - never ever ever rely on other people's trees. A high percentage of trees on Ancestry are total rubbish. Agatha, born in Dundee in 1890, married in Nova Scotia in 1892, and having a baby in Sydney in 1898. People just get all click happy and accept every "hint" given as gospel. Or just add people to the tree without referencing any document or evidence at all.

Yes Scotland's people is expensive but you are seeing the original record rather than a dodgy transcription.

Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths in Scotland only started in 1855. Before that date you are relying on Old parish registers (OPRs), not all of which have survived. It is entirely possible that you will not find a birth or marriage.

Have you done a DNA test?

Sorry Kassandra, didn't mean to put off any proper experts :)

Yes, I have been generally reasonably discerning on accepting hints, most of the ones I've accepted have some degree of back up form the original work I did and seemed a decent fit but I'm going to take my time now and check it all from my parents backwards if i don't already have the actual record. It's easy just to get all caught up in it but it just all started to get the way you described with people seemingly travelling back and forth from the US or being buried in New York when there has been no other hint of a foreign connection.

I've not done a DNA test.

Thanks for commenting. I think i'm going to use the Scotlands people to get a basic structure and build a list of things I want to check and maybe book myself into the centre sometime and make good use of it.

People with no middle names are a nightmare though.

You are going about this the right way. Take your time, reference what you found. You don't need to write full academic references for every document you look at but it is a good idea to get into the habit of writing down the reference on the Scotland's People page or noting the name of the collection on Ancestry or similar so when you come back to it 6 months later you can find it again.

Don't discount other records like voters' lists or newspapers.

If you are physically in Scotland with a Scottish address, sign up for a free digital account at the National Library of Scotland. This gives you online access to loads of useful stuff for genealogy - FindMyPast being the main one - also the Scotsman archive, local newspaper archives, the SCRAN digital image archive. I am a massive fan of newspapers in genealogy, lots of trivia was reported in the past and you can often find really interesting stuff about ancestors.

Other top tip - search for addresses as well as names, sometimes you get a hit on something veryt interesting happening in a street or farm or something when your ancestors were living there. Adds context.

Thanks again! I can see this being a long term interest. I got chatting with my sister last night and she was able to give me some names of cousins I didn't know and also put a name to a photo I remember being in my grandparents house. That was a bit of a two steps forwards and one back as based on the high level info on Scotland's people, I couldn't find an appropriate match. Got a couple of possible birth records but we know they died in childhood and the only matching death of a child is a baby and we remember the person in the photo being about 7ish.

The name she gave would fit as it was a grandparent name but maybe was a middle name.

Another puzzle for the list 😊

I'll definitely get signed up and see if I can find anything interesting

If anyone is still around, can I ask how you would approach a search for the following without getting lots of certificates that may not be correct? My dad has a really common surname. He was orphaned at age 7 and spent some time either being raised by grandparents in impoverished circumstance or in childrens' homes. I know for a fact he had an elder brother (whom I've met and know and is deceased, i'm not in touch with any of his children) My dad also died many years ago. The only other sibling I have ever heard mention of was a sister and I think i know the correct forename. No idea where she fits in the sibset but she went to live with a better off aunt who didn't want the boys and there was never any contact between them after that. No idea if she is alive or not or where she went to live.

Tree hints on ancestry come up with 2 trees who have 3 further brothers and no mention of a sister.

I know that my Dad's dad had a brother (he reported the death) and his address is listed on the other side of edinburgh. I suspect that at least two of these additional brothers may be his DC due to where the births were recorded so could be cousins rather than brothers. The third looks like a child who may have died in infancy according to the other trees.

So how would you approach getting the correct siblings without getting the birth records for all of the suspected DC? Is there a standard way of working through this?

In terms of years, we are looking at his parents being born 1900/03, married in 1926 and both died 1940. The brother I know is correct born in 1927 and my dad in 1933 - the extra 3 brothers suggested are in between those dates so perfectly possible to be siblings.

So I think for that time period you’ll need to view official birth/marriage records. I understand the dilemma on the common name though. In the trees you’ve found, are the potential brothers/cousins married? Searching for a pair of names in the marriage records (even if both are common) will throw up far fewer results than a single surname in the births but should still have the parents names (if known).

Also, apologies if this is obvious, but do you have all the info from your grandparents death certs/parents marriage certs like the informants/witnesses. If not it may be worth paying the £1.50 charge to get all the info as that could give the name of siblings, though perhaps less likely if the family was split up in their younger years.

Thanks for replying.

Hmm, I've looked at both trees that contain the information and they are both created by potential cousins. I'm a bit stymied as it obviously doesn't give any information on people who are alive. However, the first one seems to be on a branch of a 2nd son in the family so, for example, my Dad's eldest brother is John, 2 years later there is this William John who everything seems to fit for, registered in same area of Edinburgh, married, has at least one child (owner of the tree) and lived until 2012 and died not too far away, that tree then shows 2 further brothers (Robert and James) before my dad, Robert lived until the 1970s and James died in infancy. I'd initially thought that John and William John were the same person with just inaccurate dates applied.

I can't ever remember William or Robert existing. I've asked my older sister and she has no recollection of them existing either. No mention on his chart of a sister.

The 2nd tree has John and William John and James but not Robert or my Dad, but it also doesn't give information on who the sibling in the tree is as they are still alive. They have a deceased husband (born in and married in London and died in Wales) though so I suspect this is probably my Dad's sister. No descendants are named as they are still alive.

So all trees share the same grandparents/my dad's parents and there are specific details given the manner of their death that required a supplement from their death certificates to be applied for, I'm fairly sure from details given that both these trees applied for that so I am confident that the grandparents in all cases are correct.

It's some business for unravelling family mysteries this genealogy game!

I can't see any way round getting some certificates. I think getting the marriage certificate for the sister might open up that side but that will be an E&W record.

It would be really good if we could search for parents names and get a hit on all offspring.

Grandparents witnesses look like his brother and her friend. My parents witnesses were both from my mum's side (her brother and sister)

My grandfather recorded my grandmothers death and then his brother (same name as marriage witness) recorded his. The eldest child at this point would be 13.

It’s been a while since I’ve been in the ScotlandPeople centre but I remember the searches having more options such as including mother’s maiden name, and it works well on the time period you mention. That’s more like the search you’re hoping for but annoyingly not available on the website. Census records showing the family group would be another way of doing it normally but that’s obviously not available yet. So I can’t think of an (inexpensive) online route for what you’re looking for.

Have you tried contacting the tree owners? They could share the source of the information they’re using for the potential brothers/siblings.

This is where paying the daily rate for Scotland's People access really pays off. Because you can look at as many James Smith or John McDonald birth records as you like in a day for a flat rate to find the right one, rather than paying £1.50 a pop to look at wrong ones.

Thanks both, I was able to find the sister using the marriage details from that other tree, I'm pretty certain I have the right one, it was the first name I thought with a middle name being a maiden name from up a generation, correct age (I thought she was younger than my dad and it turns out correct - her birth was also the other side of edinburgh (same place as the extra boys) so I'm thinking they must be genuine too and that they just flitted back and forward between the different locales. My dad never said much about his background so the little i know came from my mum. She was always pretty bitter that the sister was whisked into a life of relative wealth and my dad was left in abject poverty and I believe had an unpleasant childhood in various childrens' homes. He had a bad stutter all his life as a result. Not that that was his sister's fault. I have no idea why there was a continued relationship with his elder brother. Not close close, but he'd turn up from time to time and i remember his wife and some cousins, a couple of whom came to my dad's funeral. And yet two other brothers were in the area and we never heard of them - seems quite bizarre really.

But yes, I think the day rate at the centre is going to be invaluable although I still have to pay a train fare and have a day off work to do that also.

I'm happy to pay for the record on-line when I'm pretty sure it's the right one and it will help me achieve something.

Thanks again for all your tips and suggestions, i'm done for today so will do a little bit again tomorrow.

He has some Irish background which we though was a lot more recent than it is proving to be - i'm back quite a few generations and no sign yet

Our family is the same! My gran is desperate to prove this family link but I can't get it. Kids also desperate to be Irish!

I like the Ancestry layout but also feel I've exhausted it. Then just as I decide to give up my membership they send an interesting hint and I keep it on for another month. Its almost like they do it on purpose!