Remind me what's good about living in Scotland?

[CoralPaperweight]

I moved to Scotland 25 years ago (central belt) and I've had a great life here but over the last year or so I've got increasingly itchy feet. May be a post-Covid or age thing but I'm not sure I want to stay in Scotland forever - it just doesn't seem to be as appealing to me, and even the cities seem a bit flat at the moment. Realistically, I can't disrupt DS education at the moment, he's very settled and happy so please remind me of everything that is fantastic about life in Scotland. I'm forever reading threads about people who are desperate to move to Scotland and I'm not really seeing why at the moment.

Equating wellbeing with political indoctrination.

Thank goodness you're not an educator or working with young people.

Well, you are wrong on both of those counts. Although of course university students can be of any age and not just school-leavers.

These are the sort of questions you are encouraged to ask if you are educated in a non-Scottish university to Masters level.

Asking for a clear definition, proof and a coherent explanation by way of discussion are perfectly normal and not something to throw up your arms in horror at. The almost immediate resort to insults really isn't a great mark of a successful education system at all.

You're not even accurate. I asked a question which leads onto further discussion. I did not equate "wellbeing with political indoctrination". We really need schools in Scotland to provide the basic elements of discursive essay writing skills before students get to university.

The fact that you need this pointed out isn't great, tbh.

The Italian girl I mentioned goes to a very academic state school - because she is both bright and hard-working. There is no equivalent in Scotland. And she works very very hard, with very frequent testing. It's no picnic. She is aiming for a top international university, where the teaching is in English, although it's in Italy.

Plenty of top universities in Europe offering English teaching, agree @Turquoisellama - i have no interest in a scrap whatsoever but I'd say there is a lack of differentiation to stretch the higher academic achievers in state here and also, a lack of measurement and (any) accountability in outcomes for children were the focus is wellbeing, life skills. I have personal experience of both.

I don't think the ASL system in Scotland is fit for purpose, zero accountability to anyone. And if 1/3 of learners require addition support for learning, isn't the core model failing?

But, I doubt England is better in these regards, or any other country. It's down to parents to find, if they can, the schools that can do this.

I thought we were discussing secondary education, not tertiary, Masters, Oxbridge and beyond. These are not things that affect the majority of people living in Scotland. Secondary education is compulsory, until 16 and the vehicle for preparing all of our young people for adulthood.
A small minority of them may/may aspire to study advanced Masters degrees abroad, but that's not the purpose of the system.
Wellbeing and equality are.

Masters degrees are very standard progression from undergraduate degrees in much of Europe and are a pre-requisite for employment in many fields. I know you will say that Scottish degrees are a year longer than English but a masters degree often involves a change of university or even country and quite a lot of additional experience. One of the main things that a masters should do is to teach students how to frame complex questions and achieve a higher level discussion with better use of evidence than at undergraduate level.

The phrase "masters degree" almost seems to be a dirty word in the UK instead. I wouldn't distinguish between Scotland and England in that regard.

We're obviously coming from from very different viewpoints. Tertiary education is not the sole marker of success in life, it's not the aspiration for many. Lots of people have successful and fulfilling lives and jobs without it. It's a section of society but by no means the aim for an entire universal education system. Our society wouldn't function if that's what everyone was working towards. Secondary schools are there to raise the whole population.

I'm not for one moment suggesting it is. Many people leave school without any qualifications at all and run successful businesses. Running a business and formal qualifications have never gone completely hand in hand. Although perhaps you could argue that there are too many people (nearly always men) in very high level jobs who don't have any qualifications. Jobs for the boys is still a thing in some fields.

I was responding more to a previous poster who made the claim that Scottish education was excellent but didn't give any evidence as to why.

I suppose it depends on how you define scottish education - if you are considering how 'excellent' it is at raising the whole population, or how it ranks academically in comparison to other countries.
Hard to measure either way.

Well of course its hard to measure. And discussing a girl in italy who is flying high....well so what. There will be equivalent kids here. I can't be bothered with the continual dissing Scotland on mn. My son did a masters in his bedroom during the pandemic. My other son is doing great on his degree course. We are a low income family from schemes. So for us the education system has done us well. And i know all schools aren't the same but its not the utter mess always described on here and i for one am sick of hearing it.

No-one has said that all schools are "a mess". The point about the Italian girl is that her whole year group in her state school are doing work that is miles above what same age children in Scotland are doing. It's not about one girl - it's about the system. They have schools where bright and motivated children are taught more difficult stuff in a manner designed for bright and motivated children. We don't have that here. The odd child will do well shut in their bedroom, which is great. But many who could do well won't. Expectations are low. It's very easy for a bright child just to coast, or to nod off at the back of the class, bored to death, like one bright teenager I know, who says that for the first few years of secondary it was so slow and boring that he couldn't be bothered.

Im not getting into it with you @Turquoisellama . You've got your opinion and experiences, I've got mine. Its down to we're all different again.

My basic view is that all children should be treated equally in the sense that all should be challenged at school - not pushed too far, but pushed far enough that school is interesting and they reach their potential. The view I've seen in schools though is that the aim is for all children to achieve a basic standard. If some children reach that standard quickly and easily, there is no reason to spend time or resources on them. The problem with this is that bright children are bored and frustrated, and they don't reach their potential. This means that Scotland won't have the top layer of high achieving adults that other countries will.

Objectively speaking, studies show that Scottish educational standards have fallen in international league tables over the last fourteen years.

DS’ school is very good.

DD’s was shocking

Absolutely agree.

Fwiw (given that we appear to be using anecdotes as irrefutable evidence) my DH has an Italian client who’s earning far more here than she ever could in Italy - according to her women are simply not valued in the workplace in the same way as they are here and she’s able to progress further here than in Italy. She has no intentions of going back.

Of course Masters degrees are popular in Europe, they are free or very cheap and necessary for jobs. SAAS pay a maximum of £10,000 to cover fees AND living costs, the student has to cover the rest, adding that expense onto already accumulated student debt for a qualification you don't need for many jobs fails the cost benefit analysis test for most.
My son is still about to embark on one, funded from his savings (the fees will be about £10,000) after getting a very good degree from a very hard to get into Ancient University which he found himself well prepared for after doing three essay based Advanced Highers at his ordinary High School despite having ASN.
He would have liked to do a Masters degree in Europe but the cost of a suitable one is now out of reach due to Brexit).
I think my anecdotal evidence is just as valid as yours.

That was for @Turquoisellama

I agree with you ssd there's too much slagging off our education system on MN by various posters.

We have the option to defer children starting school aged 4 - isn't this wonderful and progressive? There's no battle now like there used to be.

I have no complaints about the education system so far. One going into S4 next week, one starting S1 in a few weeks, one early primary, another about to start primary.

All children that are being challenged but school is more than just achieving academic success. Surely many of us realise this? My eldest is learning a lot about tolerance, how to be a responsible citizen, etc.

Most of this is stuff to be learning at home in the family but this isn't a given for all children.

Maybe we should just stay in our bubble and not compare anything in Scotland with anything in any other country. That feels nice and reassuring.

So here's something in writing for you.
You may not like the syllabus, but it's a completely different level from what is studied in Scottish schools:
www.ancient-greek.com/what-is-liceo-classico.html

I totally agree. Academic achievement is one strand of what education is about. Learning at school is so much more. It's learning about society and your position in it. It"s learning about differences and celebrating them, tolerance and how to relate to people from all walks of life. Learning to be a good person and that worth and success in life are not equal to/ measured by exam results and how much you earn.
I'm getting a bit preachy now, over emotional after watching This Is Us!!

I don't know anyone who has been held back on these parameters by the Scottish education system. Anecdotal.

Exam results are just a measure of success in the basics.

How do you motivate people to succeed with this attitude?

I used to teach in an FE college and I remember trying my best to motivate 2 particularly badly behaved 19 year old young men to study for an HND which was directly related to the career/trade they had chosen to go into. Nothing too academic but the course had academic elements in it. And they would ask me why they needed to study, how it would benefit them. So, trying to appeal to something they might like, I said that if they worked hard they would earn more money and be able to buy nicer things, such as a car. And one of them turned round and said that their dad had told them that money didn't matter, everyone was equal no matter what they did and there was no point in them studying.

It was incredibly depressing. Both of them dropped out of that HND. They just had no willpower, no motivation, no discipline and although we don't usually deal with discipline issues in tertiary education, they disrupted the learning of others.

We really need young men to be hard working in order to support society. They can't all work in their daddy's business. The girls are usually more self-motivating. Education is just instilling in them the basic discipline, and yes, it is measured across the world through exam results. I don't see why Scotland should be any different.

Well I'm not very impressed with the Curriculum for Excellence so far (only have experience of primary). School spends an awful lot of time on wellbeing stuff (which is OK up to a point) BUT the knock of effect of this is that there simply isn't enough time in school to cover everything.

And although the school is great at supporting kids who are struggling, the most capable kids tend to be left to get on with it. All kids should be encouraged to reach their full potential. And its not the fault of the teachers either - they just seem overwhelmed trying to cover the amount of stuff they have to when there aren't enough teachers.

Honest to god!!!!

So there's a couple of lazy arsed 19 yr olds who can't be motivated.

I mean, really?

What about the thousands of other 19 yr old boys who are motivated and do well? Or will we just concentrate on the ones who won't/don't?

I like a discussion as much as the next person, but this isn't a discussion. It's 2 posters giving examples of i think 3 kids that were hard work to teach and did badly. Like thats all we can talk about, the failures. Not the ones who did great against the odds, or the ones who tried hard and did themselves proud. Or posting links to something being studied abroad, like it makes difference.