Net Zero - we'll be forced to replace our gas boilers, won't we?

[LizzieMacQueen]

Published today, the SG plans on reducing emissions in Scotland's buildings. Now I know there's a climate crises but this reads to me, much like the fire alarm legislation, laws are going to be put in place to force us to switch over. I've c & p a paragraph I found in the summary.

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We will bring forward legislation during this Parliamentary term which, subject to devolved competence, will include regulatory proposals to require the installation of zero or v ery near zero emissions heating systems in existing buildings – in both the domestic and non-domestic sectors. This legislation w ill support our commitment to phasing out the need to install new or replacement fossil fuel boilers in off gas properties from 2025, and in on-gas areas from 2030.

We have a new build - only been in just over a year - and even that won't fully comply as we have a hybrid system (air source heat pump with a gas boiler to supplement.) We don't use much gas at all, it's a very small amount over the year, but it does kick in during the winter to boost the system.

The thought of having to spend £££££ if we decide to sell in a few years to rip it out is insane, especially given the low gas use anyway. I guess we might be able to replace the boiler with an electric one but it seems incredibly wasteful.

Our last house was stone built Victorian, mostly single glazed, limited options for insulating and certainly no cheap ones. And that's before you content with the limitations for anyone in any of Edinburgh's conservation areas. Don't see Edinburgh council allowing people to stick heat pumps on their houses so many properties will be limited to electric boilers.

District heating solutions in urban areas at the very least: they need to stop expecting individuals to sort this.

Modern combi boilers might only last ten years, but my traditional Ideal Mexico boiler is 25 years old, still going strong, and has only ever cost £50 for a new thermocouple and gas valve.
I intend to keep it indefinitely - the bloody SNP/Greens will have to force it from my (warm!) dead hands….

@sartorius

A Green/SNP fan at my work was horrified I wasn't installing a ground source heat pump at £30k

Well I've failed at the 1st hurdle.
I don't even know what this means

My English council's sustainability group (which I was on) started talking about this tech back in around 2007.

Ideas, plans and policies always fell at the hurdle of 'who's going to pay for it in the homes of owner-occupiers?' - especially the thousands income-poor ones in the long, densely populated terraced streets of the city.

'Sustainability' is a responsibility that gets batted back and forth between government(s) and councils, while under-funded over-complex grant schemes wither and die.

And now there are questions as to the effectiveness of the tech in small gardens.

I hope COP26 moves this forward ... but I have to say I'm rather pessimistic.

I can't think many people are going to be able to rush to install £30 k tech or have suitable properties - I know of one family that have this ground exchange tech (and it was installed about 9 years ago). They live in the highlands, built their own house, have a huge garden and included their heat exchange cost in the house build.

I do think we need big ideas on environment, I'm for anything that's fit for purpose but this isn't going to work for so many properties.

My old electric boiler has gone on the blink - I really wanted a more environmentally friendly solution, but the practicalities of an electric heat pump made it impossible.

My current electric bill is £225 a month for a 3-bed flat, so I've gone for a gas boiler. Even paying £500 for connection to the gas network- it's still more economical & less noisy than a air source heat pump

Plus less noisy for neighbours in a flat. It only works in modern builds with good insulation & if you don't mind large radiators & it taking hours to warm up.

So a gas boiler it is for me......

I am in England but I stumbled upon this thread. How does it work for flats? I am in a London flat. How would it work for those edinburgh tenement flats?

I have a communal garden so there is quite a lot of space for a heat pump in theory but everyone would have to agree

Air source heat pump will do very little in an uninsulated home due to lower heat output than a gas boiler. If you live in a new construction home than great! But SO many of us don't. I am very supportive of low energy but I can't believe this whole idea! You fist need to give people money to properly insulate their 100+ year old dump houses, install proper double glazing, insulate under the the ground floor... and only THEN use an ASHP! It's a classic cart before the hours situation.
Also ASHP condensers can be very noisy, so if you can't install it away from your house, you will hear the hum when the windows are open... and your neighbours too!

Just saying, the Gov need to provide urgent grants for general home improvements. The ASHP is just a small component of a much bigger problem.

Our ASHP is on the side of the house, we don't hear it at all as a result (you can't hear it from the other side of the wall thankfully.) The rest of the street is similar- they've been put in places where you don't walk near them regularly although I know our neighbours can hear ours if they walk through their side gate to access the back gardens. It's not problematic here because they've been able to place them well but these are decent sized detached houses - that wouldn't translate in city centre flats or terraced houses... whack a bunch of them on a block of flats and you'd hear it for sure.

Even with a hyper insulated new build the ASHP can struggle with big temperature drops which is when the hybrid system we have kicks on - it gives a quick boost, gets the house warm, and the ASHP can then maintain it fine. Our gas bill is probably only about £100 per year so it's not on much but that small amount makes a big difference and makes it a practical solution. As a result I can't imagine just a heat pump being an effective solution for an older, less insulated property. And sealing older properties (which weren't designed for it) up to the level required might just be creating a whole new set of problems.

I struggle to see how the govt expect this to work in reality with the housing stock that actually exists in this country. Even in properties where it is possible the cost of insulating, replacing windows, installing a heat pump (or hybrid) will be way beyond most people's means, not to mention the upheaval. Most will end up with expensive to run electric boilers probably.

Without serious government investment this seems like an incredibly impractical plan that doesn't work in the real world

And did anyone see the guy on the news last night who had ground source heat pump?
Large house and massive garden (which he said was needed). Who's got garden that size🤷🏼‍♀️
Clearly had plenty money as cost him £20k.

The devil is in the detail: £450m will be made available over the next three years - although this figure is only enough to cover 90,000 pumps.

My DH thinks that this is a scheme for the rich tories to get a subsidy for 'back up systems' for their country home. It isn't cheap to heat those large country homes so it might be worth the investment esp if gas becomes even more expensive in later years. Or even if it doesn't work out financially, they may want it for peace of mind. But obviously being Tory, they want handouts from the government to do so.

90,000 heat pumps barely even scratches the surface so most of us will still have gas.

Sounds like pre-COP26 politicking to me. I can't see how it's practical for a majority of homes, particularly in cities and towns.

I'm in an Edinburgh townhouse flat and I can't see how it could be done. To be honest they'd do better getting the owner of my flat (I rent) to replace the windows before they even think about boilers. Single-glazed sashes with rattly frames in poor condition. But oh no, Category A listed building, UNESCO World Heritage site, can't be done, etc etc.

Yeah, someone might need to get Edinburgh Council on board as last time I looked (I moved out of the city centre last year) their rules made it very difficult to make old properties eco friendly. We were able to replace some windows with double glazed (slimline) although our buyer has got consent for proper double glazing - he apparently fought them hard on his previous property (listed, new town conservation area) to get consent for proper double glazing, but even then it's really expensive to have double glazing retrofitted or to have new wooden sashes made. Plenty of people can't afford several k per window.

@onlychildhamster - I've been investigating this for flats & I cannot see how it works - unless it's modern & well insulated with plenty of outdoor space.

I decided not to get one because of the impact on noise on neighbours- as well as the practicalities of installation in an older flat.

I don't think we are near enough with the technology for flats - perhaps new build detached houses at the moment are ok.

@LargeProsecco there are hardly any new build detached houses in London! New builds are usually flats and terraced! Ok there are new build detached in my area that are in bishops avenue (I live near bishops avenue) but those sell for £30 million and are mainly empty and owned by offshore companies.

My flat is 1930s and the majority of the housing stock in my area is older flats and Victorian terraces. Hampstead Garden Suburb is another conservation area (they do have detached houses for a few million but you can't change the appearance).

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-plans-to-link-mortgages-to-compulsory-green-home-improvements-0t7vhmwhn

I think this will make a bigger impact than the heat pumps. My EPC rating is D, perhaps I will need to spend money to improve it in order to remortgage (if I haven't moved on by then)- 1930s flat. I guess this could mean draughty victorian terraces which have always commanded a premium in London (as they look more attractive) could go down in value as a result in comparison to more energy efficient modern box like houses

I don't understand the science but if we are drawing heat from outside air (ASHP) or the ground (GSHP) does that not also have an impact on the environment? I can't imagine it has no impact.