How many N5s (and at what grades) should I expect my teen to achieve?

[Preech]

Need a sense-check, if anyone with experience can help--I didn't grow up in Scotland but am settled and raising children here. Feedback from other parents, maybe in other parts of Scotland besides Aberdeen, would help me get my head around a foreign school system and standards.

Currently have a S4 teen working "below target" in all of her N5 subjects (and she's already dropped down to N4 in one, and working in N3 in another). We've just received a second progress warning letter from one N5 subject teacher today (who won't let her drop down to N4, supposedly because he thinks she's capable of N5 work).

I went to uni, my husband and his ex (DT's mum) did not. Neither did his sister. Neither did my husband's closest friends. I suspect the oil industry in NE Scotland kind of allowed for that, because they all walked into decent wages and solid careers almost straight out of school. This is not at all the experience I had growing up in the States--if I'd left high school with a couple of subject exam passes and nothing else, I'd be stuck on minimum wage and no benefits for the rest of my life. Never mind moving to another country.

So, DT is spending more time on TikTok, Netflix, and Snapchat than studying. It's not a learning disability getting in her way: we had the school check. Meanwhile, three different job ads I've seen for local apprenticeships in Aberdeen City, hiring age 16-19, saying candidates should have five N5s, A or B grades minimum, English and math required.

Am I right to be worried about this kid's chances if she keeps slacking off? Am I right to expect her to achieve at least five N5s before leaving school (she won't be allowed to leave until mid-S5 at the earliest, she's a non-deferred Feb birthday). What is the expectation like in the rest of Scotland?

Thanks from a foreigner who is trying her best ...

I forgot about the -- code making strike through here. Hopefully what I wrote is still kinda legible.

Posting what I wrote again, because I can't even read the first one:

Need a sense-check, if anyone with experience can help. I didn't grow up in Scotland but am settled and raising children here. Feedback from other parents, maybe in other parts of Scotland besides Aberdeen, would help me get my head around a foreign school system and standards.

Currently have a S4 teen working "below target" in all of her N5 subjects (and she's already dropped down to N4 in one, and working in N3 in another). We've just received a second progress warning letter from one N5 subject teacher today (who won't let her drop down to N4, supposedly because he thinks she's capable of N5 work).

I went to uni, my husband and his ex (DT's mum) did not. Neither did his sister. Neither did my husband's closest friends. I suspect the oil industry in NE Scotland kind of allowed for that, because they all walked into decent wages and solid careers almost straight out of school. This is not at all the experience I had growing up in the States. If I'd left high school with a couple of subject exam passes and nothing else, I'd be stuck on minimum wage and no benefits for the rest of my life. Never mind moving to another country.

So, DT is spending more time on TikTok, Netflix, and Snapchat than studying. It's not a learning disability getting in her way: we had the school check. Meanwhile, three different job ads I've seen for local apprenticeships in Aberdeen City, hiring age 16-19, saying candidates should have five N5s, A or B grades minimum, English and math required.

Am I right to be worried about this kid's chances if she keeps slacking off? Am I right to expect her to achieve at least five N5s before leaving school (she won't be allowed to leave until mid-S5 at the earliest, she's a non-deferred Feb birthday). What is the expectation like in the rest of Scotland?

Thanks from a foreigner who is trying her best ...

Both my children got 6 Nat 5's. Both had to resit maths to get the grades they wanted.

My nephew failed all his prelims but it was what woke him up to having to work for the final exams.

He did however fail 2 of his advanced highers last year as he didn't see the point in putting the work in until it was too late. Of course exams were then cancelled. It's been a huge learning curve for him.

As a mum I find we have to sit back sometimes and let them learn from their mistakes then be there to pick up the pieces.

My dd18 left school at 16 with a couple of national 4s and went straight to college to do a professional cookery course, school was not for her, she does have dyslexia and school was an information overload. She's ahead of target at college and they reckon she can go to university and become a home economics teacher!

Ds 15 is currently in S4 and predicted to pass all 6 subjects at national 5 at the highest level.

She maybe would learn in a different environment or maybe she is being lazy and her teachers know what she is capable of, this last year has been so strange and the kids have all lost motivation.

I'd say that Nat 5 in maths and English is probably needed for most things, if she doesn't do well in those this year she can resit next year. To move to Highers in my childrens school you need an A or a B at Nat5. One good thing about this system is that you can progress each year e.g. Nat 4 4th year, 5 in 5th and Higher in 6th but only if you work for it.
It is hard to let them learn the hard way but if she is not engaging this year then this will be reflected in the teachers scores, adds the pressure for next year but it is down to her.

Dd sat 7 Nat5s and got 7 As. Must be much harder now with remote learning though.

She is now in S6 and not very motivated with her advanced highers and its hard to get her to do much of anything

What you really need to figure out is if she is below target because it’s just too challenging for her (lots of kids get put forward for n5 initially and then dropped down to n4) or if it is lack of effort/motivation. Is the N3 something she’s been dropped down to or is it like an extra course? Lots of schools don’t offer N3, so if she has been dropped down to that it suggests that she either does very little in the way of work or is really struggling and they still want her to get an award out of it. Some kids try to mask that they are struggling as well by making it look like they just aren’t motivated or doing the work so look out for that. If I were you I’d contact her pupil support/guidance teacher to ask whether the issue is capability or effort - they will likely ask her class teachers and you’ll get an honest answer so you can know what’s best to do for her.

Agree with the above poster, and you are right to tackle this now. I have never believed everyone should go to uni or feel they have somehow failed if they don't. However my concern looking at some of my dcs contemporaries, is that without any focus young people often drift. Know a few who are now early 20s and still on very part time hours in supermarkets etc. Now nothing wrong with a supermarket job but they appear to lack any motivation to ask for more hours or extra training to progress.
The ones that had ambition and motivation but were not particularly academic have done very well. I know of one young lady who is running her own business successfully with only a few Nat5s or equivalents to her name.
I think the 15/ 16 age is hard a lot think they will be influencers or social media stars!

Are there any apprenticeships that might motivate her? Then the conversation can move to what you need to get into it.

Maybe look at salaries. Might money be a motivator?

Also what do the parents think about the slacking off? Realistically if they allow it what can you do ?

I think most are aiming to have a minimum of 5 Nat 5s when they leave school to take them onto the next stage. If it's university they will need Highers. The good thing about the senior stage (S4, 5 and 6) is that they can do a mixture of levels over those years. She could do Nat 4s this year, then Nat 5s next year. Then either leave and go to college or apprenticeship or could stay on and do Highers in S6.

I'm in Edinburgh and schoolkids here can also attend college a day or 2 a week for specific vocational courses, alongside their school subjects.

It's really difficult for teenagers at the moment though. Many of them are becoming disengaged! They need the structure of school and encouragement of their teachers and classmates at that age.

The only thing I would say though is that in s4 if she is going to want to go to uni after school she needs to be aiming for nat5s now. Even with a few years in school if she can’t do the subject at n5 now then it is unlikely that she will get a higher in it in s6 due to the leaps in difficulty. Its not as simple as N4 in s4 then N5 in s5 then higher in s6 unfortunately - lots find the higher just a step too far, but then there are lots of other types of qualification out there and apprenticeships as well that don’t need highers. What is it she would like to do? Has she thought about careers at all?

As a secondary school teacher, I echo everything @Optimummy has said.

Thank you all, that helps me a lot!

When she was beginning to think about career options and course selection in S3, I think she was just barely 14. She thought she might like to go into oncology, so we looked up the requirements for Scottish medical degree programmes and encouraged her to take chemistry last year. Turns out, she hates chemistry! So we agreed she could drop that one, and she no longer wants to pursue medicine.

She's also considered psychology (but so far reluctant to sign up for a class), dance teacher (but doesn't want to progress much further with her own dance practice), nursery worker (enjoyed her child development class last year, but her two little sisters also drive her mad sometimes, so she dropped that course), and I think maybe a journalist (probably showing the most enthusiasm and ability in her N5 English just now... her school has journalism classes too, but she hasn't mentioned signing up for these).

She's an empathetic kid and a wonderful listener. She's very thoughtful about current events. I think she'd find a lot of interest if she switched from Geography to Modern Studies, but she thinks it would be too hard.

Basically, she just turned 15 and doesn't know what she wants. The American answer is usually to go to college/uni anyway and major in a broad subject (English, math, biology, etc) while you figure that part out, but if that's the right strategy for her after all, then she needs to get there first.

I'll see if I can nudge her towards at least having a look at apprenticeships to see if any might spark an interest. Maybe that will give her something she'd look forward to working towards again. She was really, really looking forward to work experience last year, but the pandemic scuppered that completely.

OP there are college courses that offer some different subjects together that could be an option in the future after school as well, and some that are aimed at getting into uni if you’ve left school without the usual requirements so there will be lots of options. It sounds like she needs to find what interests her most and follow that- pick what she is best at and enjoys most for s5. Maybe she will get a new lease of enthusiasm when she is physically back in school as well.

If you/she want uni to be an option then TBH she should be aiming to get 6 Nat5s ins S4 and then 4 or 5 Highers in S5.

There are lots of options for alternative access to uni, like access courses when she's older or going to college to do HNC/HND and then transfer across but while she's still in school the aim should be to get the qualifications she needs while there... Nat 3s and 4s are not on the pathway for the vast majority of kids who end up going to uni or a more "academic" apprenticeships - it's not to say it can't happen but it's def not the norm.

TBH considering how incredibly unclear she is about what she wants to do, and her refusal to focus you might be better to "let" her get a job after school and find her path once she's had a bit more time to think about it.