Any other councils not guaranteeing place in catchment school?

[Dorent]

East Dunbartonshire council are proposing that for oversubscribed primary & secondary schools all children in the delineated catchment become placing requests (siblings/specific needs excepted), and essentially when it come down to it, places will be given to those closest to the school.

Those that don’t get into their catchment school will be bused to another school within east Dunbartonshire.

Understandably this is a worry for parents - one of the better things (IMO) about the Scottish education system is that all kids can go to their local school if they wish.

And the environmental impact with increased traffic.

But maybe this is already happening elsewhere? Or if this gets through in EDC it sets an unwelcome precedent for the rest of the country?

The consultation is underway...

It's been this way in England for the last 20 years or so at least.

I’m well aware from family members and threads on here of the angst this causes in England! I would’ve hoped we would never go down that road...

The trouble is, if schools in certain areas are stuffed to the gunnels and building new classrooms would be either impossible because there is no space, or undesirable because it leave the school with too little outside spaces or just plain expensive which can be hard to justify if there are plenty of schools with unfilled places within easy distance.

How do you think it could/should be managed otherwise?

No. In edinburgh catchment boundaries are being moved and new schools built. There’s resistance obviously but it seems the best way to do it.

Is there anywhere else in Scotland where catchment kids are bused out to other schools?

This seems to be a natural consequence of the over development of Bearsden/Milngavie

The proposals ( and they are only proposals at this stage) also seem to be discriminatory to RC children

I suppose it comes down to projected numbers,if there is a serious risk of too many catchment children something will have to be done

I know in recent years fewer children from outside the catchment have got in,which I think most people in catchment are ok with

The solution is build more schools, adjust catchment boundaries - and give all children the option to walk to their local school.

If the council allow hundreds of family homes to be built it’s obvious what the solution is.

For secondary in particular they will know the likely rough numbers 7 years in advance... taking potential new developments into account.

I just wanted to know what the situation was like in other councils. I don’t want to necessarily derail into the rights or wrongs of the issue. (Cant he helped though!! )

Presumably there must be similar issues in East Ren

Well the issue can be helped. I am a Bearsden/Milngavie resident and have seen first hand how much the school places are under pressure. This is entirely down to the Council.

On the one hand, have approved hundreds of new houses at the Allander, the old bearsden Academy site, the hill above the new Academy, behind Boclair Academy, behind the old Council offices on Milngavie Road... Other standalone developments being approved regularly. Mostly for 3, 4, 5 bedroom houses. Council appear shocked that the consequence of them being so willing to take money from Cala is that families move into these larger properties and need school places. They are also more than happy to take money from Rangers, tying up 25 places every year in Boclair for boys from their football academy, who come from all over the city.

Simultaneously, they have been building new schools at Douglas and Bearsden which are smaller than the schools they replaced. Not taking placing requests from Glasgow/Clydebank/Strathblane any more? Fine. But it's now at the stage that the schools aren't big enough for local kids either.

The Council's sheer greed is behind this.

Our council does reviews of catchment areas on a fairly regular basis when new housing developments and/or schools are built. Not heard of bussing to non catchment schools.

Thanks to those saying they’ve not heard of busing out catchment kids in their area (surely there’s an easier way of saying that?!)

Pineapple - sorry I wasn’t clear, I was meaning it can’t be helped discussing the underlying issue that the council have totally screwed up on this!

According to the proposed criteria we are likely to be okay with getting places at our desired school, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that changing policy as a short term measure is NOT a good thing, start of a slippery slope nationally whereby no one is guaranteed a place at their local school??

I also think those with out of catchment placing request older children are in for a shock when siblings don’t get in but don’t get a say in the matter.

The council have been very opaque on the numbers/likely schools affected - i gather it’s not just Bearsden but also Lenzie & Bishopbriggs where there are issues?

Although if Labour get in and if private schools are abolished Bearsden Academy will burst

Perhaps the council were expecting that those families dropping three quarters of a mil on a nice new Cala home would be going private!!

I may not understand this correctly so please discard my comments as nonsense if required!

My understanding is that east Dunbartonshire is following what east Renfrewshire has already implemented.

In ER there are school communities. You choose at the start of P1 denominational or non-denominational. If you choose a catholic primary then your catchment is the catholic secondary. If you wish your child to attend a nondenominational secondary this will be treated as a placing request. The reverse is the same. Likewise if you move to east Renfrewshire you must continue in what stream you selected for your child in P1.

Is it different in ED?

Sort of. At present, the catchment RC secondary for Bearsden/Milngavie is in Bishopbriggs. Many (around 95% on some years) parents have in the past chosen to opt out of Catholic education at P7 to keep their kids in local schools and not have then bussed 10 miles to Bishopbriggs. It is sort of treated as a placing request, but children living in catchment have historically been at the top of the pecking order, whatever primary they have been to.

The East Dun proposals are to shake things up and change the order in which they manage admissions if a school doesn't have places for all catchment children.
the proposed order is:

1. siblings
2. children with additional support needs or medical needs
3. Distance to school

But this only applies to children in "associated primary schools". The RC primary is associated to the RC secondary only. So you could have a situation whereby a child living right next door to a secondary doesn't get in because they were at a RC primary. There's a big campaign going on to get the RC primary listed as associated to either/or.

I'm just glad my youngest is in P7.

The situation with the RC schools sounds like it’s the same. But additionally those in catchment, associated (non- denom) schools may also not get a place if the school is oversubscribed

There’s no suggestion that they would then go to their next nearest school, that may be full too so it’s not just a case of redrawing catchments.

I'd have thought that being in the defined catchment should take priority over siblings (tough as that might be for families - it's a risk you should be aware of when you make placing requests)

I agree: it's a slippery slope

If the council has been remiss enough to allow all this building without the additional school places (they could have incorporated conditions on the developers that they needed to build/contribute towards the building of new schools), then they should be planning for portacabins/additional space at the schools.

I went to Bearsden Primary during the "bulge" years of the 60s: we had portacabin class rooms in the playground back then, until more primaries (like Baljaffray) were built.

@Dorent - no I don't think that is the policy in ER unless you move into the area. You are then only guaranteed a place in an ER school.

If the council has been remiss enough to allow all this building without the additional school places

That's exactly what's happened. And the potential changes are already having an impact - DS is in P7 and has a new child joining his school next week from the RC school along the road, probably as his parents want to be 100% sure of a local non-denominational place for him next year at secondary.

Part of the deal for allowing lots of new houses was a rebuilt Allander sports centre and guess what... that's not happened either and they're trying to wriggle out of providing a like for like replacement.

Developers should always be made to build the amenity before they can start building the houses.

Don't know if it is apocryphal but I remember being told that they were made to build the Allander golf course (is that what it's called?) in Milngavie, before they were allowed to build the houses that back on to it.

Our local RC school is full. There is a non-den primary opposite it. RC children are bused from the outskirts of the RC catchment in preference to accommodating non-den children who live closer. It is not enough to be RC to be given priority, the DC would have to be attending their associated catchment RC primary. No preference is given to siblings not meeting the criteria in their own right.

I assume there are lots of examples of this where a non-den primary is located near to a well regarded RC secondary because RC catchments tend to be larger.

AFAIK this is the position in E Renf where it is St Ninian's which is most in demand.

howabout - that must be infuriating! Obviously not if you’re in favour of state funded religious education. (I am not!)

I can’t see non-den catchment parents fighting the cause for those at RC primaries when they could be taking places from their children?

Such a ridiculous situation.

And it shows how easy the tables could turn if the RC secondaries in ED were subsequently deemed to be significantly ‘better’ than local schools!

East Ren haven't guaranteed catchment for new to area

Place-marking.

Can I ask a question - if DC do not get into Bearsden, would they get transport to the school in Bishopbriggs? I am presuming they would but does anyone know the arrangements. I want to know just how much of a problem this potentially is.

More generally, I think if they do not change the RC primary school to an associated school, the risk is surely that it will empty out and that will have been a huge waste of money to rebuild.

Being very closely in the defined catchment area, I totally agree by the way that this should take priority over siblings outside the catchment area - how is that fair?

More generally, I think if they do not change the RC primary school to an associated school, the risk is surely that it will empty out

Bearsden primary is a nice piece of real estate... would be very opportune should a purpose built building become available...

But yes, council will pay transport for those over 3 miles by reasonable walking route. But then if a place was to become available later for the catchment school they will no longer meet the transport costs should your child wish to stay in the school they will have presumably have had to make huge efforts to settle in to, not being with their primary peers or close to home. (not the RC schools mind)