Subject choices already

[Sewbean]

DS is in S2 and has had his first chat about choosing his subjects for S3 and 4. I am so behind the times with all this, I need to get my head around it all. He's a worrier so he will be stressing about it already.

He has the option of 7 nat5s. I think he will manage that if he puts some effort in.
Maths and English seem to be the only definites in his school. I would think a language is a must, but apart from that? A science?

My instinct is to advise him to take things he enjoys. It seems to me that the people I have come across in life, the subjects they have studied and even in many cases he degree they have, are not directly related to what they have ended up doing.

I guess the exceptions to this would be anything medical where you will definitely need sciences. Other than that where else does your choice of nat5 subjects limit you?

Is it a bit naive of me to say to pick what you love? I know dh will think quite differently to me and want him to pick quite academic things. He followed a very traditional path of maths, accounting, economics sort of subjects at school, an accountancy degree, then became an accountant.

Or nowadays do you need a degree that relates very specifically to a job? And do you need to set yourself on that path quite early on?

I am in denial a bit that I have reached this point in being a parent already. Are there any good places to read, good discussions to learn about, to try and help me understand how the world works nowadays? I've been in the same job for years and am really happy there so totally out of touch.

Does he know what he wants to do? It's very early to be making decisions, but in our school the kids go down to 9 subjects for S3, then choose their final 7 for exams in the Spring of S3.

Every school does things differently, at our school the "rules" are that everyone in S3 does:

maths
english
french
one of geography / history / modern studies
one science
something creative - art, drama, music, graphic design
a "technology" - D&T, engineering, home economics, textiles, computing.

Once they've chosen something in each column they can then choose extras. DD is in S3 and is doing two sciences, and both history and geography, for example. At the end of S3 they can drop what they want although school usually recommends doing at least one science.

I think i would advise him to do a language, and a science or 2 (unless he wishes to do medicine or become a vet), and then the rest of what he enjoys. my niece who is sitting nat5s now was advised to take:

• the 2 compulsories (so maths and english)

-a language -at least 1 science -a humanity (so geography, history or religious studies) and the rest should be what she enjoyed

all the best x

Oh and agree - you can't force them to do things they don't enjoy.

If they're choosing hopefully towards the end of in S2, then they'll still need to follow at least the principles of the Broad General Education, which is supposed to be followed until the end of S3.

That means, iirc, Maths, English, a MFL, a Science, a Arts type subject (although not sure how ds' Computing Science came into that category - but he could have chosen Art or Music in that column), a Social Sciences type subject (History or Geography), PE & RME. PE & RME don't need to be taken to Nat 5 (although it used to be that you could end up with a Nat 4 anyway - not sure if that's still the case).

I agree with sleep that apart from the core subjects, the rest should be what ds enjoys and/or has an interest in.

In Scotland they allow so few subjects. It forces children to make important decisions way too early in my view. With only 7 subjects, going down to 5, I think they should all be academic subjects. They have to make an early decision on whether to focus on arts, sciences or humanities.

So few? 7 is plenty. And most kids in the rest of the Uk go down to 3 straight after gcse.

I agree - 7 or 8 down to 5 is much broader than the English structure .

Ds' (old) school allows 8 Nat 5s so he did Maths, English, French, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, PE and Computing Science (and also got a Nat 4 from his "core" RME ) and went on to do English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Geography for his Highers in S5 and AHs in Physics and Chemistry and was able to crash a Higher in Modern Studies in S6.

This was a broad enough base for him to change his mind in the summer before S6 ( before he got his results ) from wanting to do Sciences at Uni to wanting to do International Relations

A friend of his, who is precociously clever and sat his Nat 5, Higher and AH Maths all a year "early" is now doing a MFL and Economics degree (not having done an Economics exam as it's a subject you can start at Uni).

I did 6 Highers (a looong time ago and even then it wasn't common to do that many but my class did ) and it was a deliberate decision to do 3 Arts (English, French, Latin) and 3 Sciences (Maths, Physics, Chemistry) as I wanted to keep my options open (as did my friends) I went off to Uni after S5 but most of my friends stayed on to S6.

I was bemused at Uni to come across English students who'd only done Arts or Science A Levels (yes, I was quite naive )

OP - have a look at www.myworldofwork.co.uk/subject-choices

Oops last link doesn't appear to work

Try www.myworldofwork.co.uk/choosing-my-subjects

In England, you take exams in 9 or 10 subjects at 16. In Scotland at that age, you're allowed only 5 subjects. The year before, it was 6 or 7. The decision on what to specialise in is made 2 years later in England. In other countries, eg France, Germany, Italy and Spain, they learn a large number of subjects up to the age of 18.

This leads to a narrower education in Scotland, with children being forced to ditch important subjects they haven't yet got to grips with. When my daughter had just turned 14, she was told to work out what she wanted to do as a career, so that she could choose the right 7 National Fives. She had no idea.

She's now having to look for degree courses that fit her subjects, rather than being able to choose her subjects to fit the degree course she wants to do.

But Pamper.... most kids are 16 or approaching 16 when they do their first set of schoole exams, the National 5s. OK so there is a bit of a cross over in terms of age as the intake is different from England but these are still the first, lower exams which were traditionally the ones after which you can leave school. Most kids do at least 7. Some schools offer 8. Also in England they separate out English Language and English LIterature whereas here we just do English. So it's really not that different or narrower choice - 9 GCSEs including two types of English, or 7 or 8 with one type of English.

And besides, many schools offer MORE subjects in S3, reducing again in S4. My kids do 9 subjects in S3, dropping to S4 for exams.

5 Highers is lots more broad than the situation in England where you do your GCSEs and then have to choose 3 A-levels for the next two years. 5 is obviously more than 3. Lots of children are 17 when they sit their Highers, or almost 17.

My DD is 14 too and still very unclear about what she wants to do. I think that's fairly common in her age group. Several of her friends know they want "something sciencey" or something creative, but haven't a clear focus.

pamper 9 or 10 in England is THE SAME as 7 in Scotland. The extra 2/3 come from English 2nd paper, 3rd science and compulsory RE in faith schools.

Generally agree with Otra list but to avoid closing off any science I would suggest Chemistry and Physics. (Would be medics can crash Biology Higher in S5 or S6 if they have the other 2 which are much harder to pick up later). If they really hate science then I have trouble defending doing just 1. Computing or Business management might be better options if they are good at Maths. If they are Maths phobic then a second humanity or MFL might make more sense.

We've had this argument with pamper before (at least, I presume it was her, but I think she has name changed). She refuses to accept the Nat 5s are the equivalent of GCSEs and keeps insisting that Highers are the equivalent

I must have been really clever as I went to Uni from S5 with just Highers - to a Uni that, although in Scotland, has mostly English students and therefore assumed that most people had a base of A Levels

For others reading who might be interested:

Nat 5s = GCSEs .....sat in Scotland in S4 (which roughly = Y11) by kids who are 15 - 16.5.

Highers = (roughly) AS levels, which I recognise are no longer(?) sat in England, or at least don't count for much. Mostly commonly sat, 5 of them, in S5 but there is flexibility to spread them over 2 years or to sit/re-sit some more in S6. Highers are worth more UCAS points than AS Levels.

Advanced Highers = A Levels, sat in S6 (=Y13). Interestingly, an AH at A is worth the same UCAS points as an A* at A Level. An A at Higher is worth more UCAS points than a C at A Level.

Part of the confusion comes about because of the different cut-off dates for schooling - March in Scotland (with the real possibility of deferring if a child is not 5 by the August that school starts; in practice only January and February birthdays and less commonly November and December) So for example, ds' birthday is in September. I didn't defer him (although technically I could have done ), so even though he went all the way through to S6, he was still only 17 when Uni started (turned 18 on the 1st day of lectures, after Freshers' Week ). If he'd been in England, rather than being in the middle/young end of the year, he'd have been one of the oldest. One of his friends in his school, with a February birthday, who hadn't deferred, only turned 18 half way through the 2nd semester of his 1st year at Uni. Another friend of his, in the same year at school, who had a January birthday, had deferred, turned 18 in the January of S6 - a month before the other friend turned 17

I on the other hand, who went to Uni after S5, only had to wait 6 months until I turned 18 to drink legally fortunately they weren't so strict all that looooong way back as my birthday was in April and I was one of the oldest in my year (deferrals weren't common way back then)

I think I remember an argument with that previous poster - I have namechanged too - didn't it end up with her saying that all Scottish exams are pointless anyway and all the decent private schools teach A-levels?

Totally wouldn't accept that you can't draw direct comparisons because of the mismatch of children's ages at school intake.

DS was born in March. He's one of the oldest in his year so was 16 when he sat his Nat 5s. Some of the kids had only been 15 since the February.

In England, because of the different cut off, he'd still have sat GCSE this year but towards the younger half of the year. Some of the kids sitting GCSEs this year will be turning 17 in the next few weeks as the oldest in their year. And will be almost 19 by the time they leave school.

Yes: I have one MN friend whose ds' birthday is within days of ds' birthday - yet her ds only sat his A Levels this year and is shortly off to Uni, whereas ds is about to start his 2nd year at Uni - and doing really well, despite his horrible disadvantage of being Glasgow state school educated and having sat those horribly restrictive SQA exams

I was having deja vu all over again too

Otra At the other end of the spectrum I have a DD who will be 17, even after completing S6. Even this had its upside though as she opted to defer her Art Higher to S6 on the basis that if she really wanted to go to Art school she would still have plenty of scope to do a college foundation year and she wouldn't have committed too early. This approach would also work in other areas - she has friends doing college courses after S4, S5 and S6 as an end in itself and / or as a stepping stone.

Just for completeness it is worth bearing in mind that science and maths advanced highers give the option of 2nd year entry to related subject and engineering Uni courses (even at the ancients).

True howabout - forgot to mention that.

Ds is at an Ancient, but doing a subject that tends to get started at Uni, therefore no scope to go direct into 2nd year.

He was able even to do History as one of his extra subjects last year (Aberdeen makes them do four , so three over and above the subject you applied to do ) - which was interesting, given that he'd stopped History after S2 Given that he's doing a Social Sciences subject, just as well that I made encouraged him to do Higher English

Yes friends of ours have a December born daughter, she left school after S6 aged 17, started on a medicine degree along with English students who were 19 and had also just left school.

There's always going to be a 6 month minimum mis-match. But you can't in any way say that Highers are the same as GCSEs or all the English kids would be not bothering with A-levels and applying to Uni on the basis of their GCSE grades.

Friends whose kids did a seemingly high number of GCSEs had them doing things like "Citizenship" which appears to be like Personal and Social Education, but with an exam. And two different types of English. They also did RE as an exam. DS didn't take RE as a subject, but his exam certificate says he has some sort of Nat4 award in it.

I did 5 subjects in my first year at Uni and one of those was History. Hadn't studied it at all for O grade or Higher. Very much enjoyed it too.

Dd chose her Nat 5 subjects after S3 so did 9 up until then and then dropped down to 7 for S4. Ds is S2 just now and will have to choose his 7 Nat5 subjects around February. It is very early to decide what you want to do.

Dd did not take a language to Nat5 as it wasnt compulsory. She did english, maths, physics, chemistry, computing, history and Art.

I've no idea what ds will take but it certainly wont include Art!

You know I think knowing what you DON'T want to do is just as important as having a clear focus. If you can start ruling things out, then it might make other options more clear.

It's very early to be making decisions, but in our school the kids go down to 9 subjects for S3, then choose their final 7 for exams in the Spring of S3.

That’s what they’re supposed to do as they’re supposed to have a broad general education til the end of s3 but it appears that restricting that for s3 is how some schools bolster their Nat 5 results. Seems very unfair to the schools and kids who do it properly, but anyway, I digress.

My son is in s2 as well. He loves and is really good at everything, which doesn’t help, as there are no weaker subjects he’d be best dropping.

As long as he doesn’t hate them, I’m probably going to encourage 2 sciences at Nat 5 to help keep career options open. I only did o grade biology and while it’s never impacted my career it could have done had I ever wanted to retrain in a science-y field. He’ll probably choose history and music and maybe computer science as well.

On the other hand pamper, in Scotland it’s more usual to do 5 highers, as opposed to “only” 3 a levels.