Primary school placing request

[EveMoneypenny]

DS1 is due to start P1 in August and we'd like to make a placing request for him to attend a school out of catchment. Is it possible the school would have any idea at this stage of the likelihood that they would be able to accommodate placing requests? I'd like to email them but I'm not sure if it's a daft question! For context it's a small school with some composite classes and the data from the council website shows they always get a number of placing requests. Most are granted, but a few have been turned down. My worry is the scenario that in DS's year if they're near the number to have a composite P1/P2 and we are turned down because granting our placing request would mean employing another teacher.

It's worth the email or dropping in to ask. I know ds' old primary school (which had a lot of placing requests) was always very helpful.

The school wont know - the local education department is the only source of reliable information. At this stage they wont know either - they will know once catchment P1 pupils have registered.
You should also be aware that getting a primary school place by placement does not get you a place at the secondary school - you will need to submit a placing request and you might not be successful.

The school will know historically whether placing requests were accepted or how many were rejected.

They will also know if the current composition means that they'll need to re-organise their composite classes (as the maximum class sizes changes between, iirc P2 and P3) and whether that means that they have "room" for a full class of P1s or anoyther P1/P2 compositte.

It might not be as simple as an extra teacher - it might physically be the number of classrooms that they have.

It's worth an informal chat. The school will also be (informally) aware of how many siblings might be making a placing request. The official answer on whether there will be enough space will be from the council - but the school will be the ones that at the moment are juggling the classes.

Ds' old primary kept on having to change the composite classes as they went up through the school, to juggle changing numbers (also pupils arriving/leaving over the years).

"getting a primary school place by placement does not necessarily get you a place at the secondary school"

...it depends on whether the local authority operates a "delineated" (when you go to the secondary defined by the catchment map) or "non-delineated" (where you go to the feeder secondary of the primary school) catchment policy. Some even operate a mix of both - like Glasgow, although it did a consultation earlier this year on whether to change to a fully delineated policy (not sure what the result was, if indeed it has yet been confirmed).

Historical trends in accepting/rejecting placement request is of no use. Accepting placing requests depends on number of catchment pupils wanting a place - this varies year on year.
The education department will not employ an extra teacher to accommodate placing requests only catchment pupils

Thanks for the replies. Secondary is a whole other kettle of fish but it's 8 years away, so kind of burying my head in the sand about it right now! I'm aware we wouldn't be automatically entitled to a place and would need to make another placing request.

The full data for placing requests made/granted/withdrawn/rejected for about the past 10 years is available from the council website. In one recent year there were 14 requests made and all granted, which must have meant there were more out of catchment children than catchment! In another year 7 requests were made, 4 granted, 1 withdrawn and 2 rejected. Last year only 4 requests and all granted. So it's really hard to tell from that, and as @seniorcitizen1 says heavily depends on the number of catchment children. I just wondered if the school would have any rough idea about that based on communication with the nurseries, for example? They don't have their own nursery, but I think most of the children would go to the one attached to the other village primary school or one of the two private nurseries in the village.

At my DCs old primary approximately two thirds catchment and one third placing requests) the head was always happy to give historical advice pre enrolment and better info post enrolment and even better info post the March cutoff in our area for placing requests.

You've got nothing to lose by asking about their historical experience - and I'm sure the headteacher will not see it as cheeky At worst, she or he would say that they don't have a clue

If nothing else, he or she might know that there is a massive bulge of siblings due to start - and you'd be a lower priority than sibling placing requests.

That's something that the council is unlikely to know and the headteacher more likely to know, due to his or her knowledge of the parents at the (small) school

I would certainly ask Can’t do any harm although agree with pps that it’s up Council
Secondary will come round quicker than you think
IME if you get them in to primary you then fret about getting them in to secondary with the additional stress of worrying they won’t go to secondary with ffiends
FWIW primary schools generally are fine
I would focus on secondary

If you have the historical data, the school aren't really going to be able to tell you anything more.

They won't want to give false hope, the last thing they need in March is an irate parent saying 'You told me we'd be in!' (not saying that you'd do that, but it happens).

I think the general concensus is I probably won't get much info at this stage, but I won't be thought of as a total weirdo for asking a ridiculous question. I'll get in touch with the school and see what they say.

Regarding secondary, I think our best option is the catchment secondary of this primary (either placing request or moving into catchment, but school is usually oversubscribed and property in the catchment is expensive). So we'll need to think about what to do before then - hoping for a lottery win and maybe we'll go private.

I know you aren't asking this question, but thought I'd mention our experience of catchment vs village school. I stay a couple of streets away from my SIL and we have dc 10 weeks apart. We both stay in a new build estate and the catchment school is in the neighbouring estate which is classed as a deprived area, well known due to TV for all the wrong reasons, but I was new to area so that was my only impression. There is a village a couple of miles in the opposite direction with a small village school. SIL/BIL and dh/I initial thoughts were village school, smaller classes, less children in classes, better socially etc We both (separately) visited both schools.

Dh and I unexpectedly found the headmaster at the catchment school very inspiring and felt an instant good buzz about the place. Lots of what the headmaster said about learning and pastoral care really hit home. I openly asked him about the areas reputation, our concerns and how we were discussing the small village school and he explained the differences in the type of schooling and school experience and to be aware if ds had no particular needs (other than being very shy) to be in a small school, it wasn't good preparation for going to a large secondary. The deputy head then showed us around into classes being taught, she spent a good hour with us. Both very visibily proud of their school.

The Village school was very small and just lacked oomph, ht felt dismissive and couldn't wait to get rid of us..

We decided to send ds to the catchment school and he thrived there. Brilliant culture, lots of friends, top sets for most things and is now thriving in secondary. He also had lots of local school friends he could just go out and play with in our estate.

SIL/BIL chose to send my niece to the village school instead. School and teaching was fine, but she found it difficult. Villages can be very cliquey when it comes to parties and play dates. If dn fell out with a friend there are no other friends to move too as the group was so small. SIL, who is very likeable, took a role on the PTA to try to fit in, everyone was naice to their faces but they were still never included in parties etc. Lots of tears over the years from dn and she also never made many local school friends she could play out with. When dn went to the same large 700+ pupil secondary it took a long time to adjust to the, relatively speaking, huge classes.

Make sure you do your homework and visit both before choosing either school, a small school might sound good ideally and may be the best option but not always as there are negatives too. A lot will depend on how good the heads are and whether other parents make you feel welcome.

For placement requests we were told you register at your catchment school in January iirc and put a placement request for the other school.

Sorry that was so long!!!

but school is usually oversubscribed and property in the catchment is expensive)

This sounds awfully like the schools in Bearsden/Milngavie.

Agree with what everyone else has said - no harm in putting in a call to the school office. Registration for new P1s isn't until January though so they won't know how many catchment children they'll have registered until then. Some catchment children may defer. You won't here till much later - here it's about April.

In our school there are dozens of placing requests but the local secondary is full to bursting. Over the last three years it's gone from most placing requests for secondary accepted to only people with siblings (and not even all of those). That's only going to get worse. I don't think that situation is really so unusual.

Yes secondary is 8 years away but it will go in a flash and if you leave it until your DC is starting P6 or P7, you'd have a right panic on your hands.

The primary school my children went to always took all their out of catchment children then one year they took none and it's been similar ever since.

With rising roles in our area, unless you have a strong case even appeals have little impact.

To win an appeal you have to show LA did not follow their own policies and procedures. If school is full then appeal will fail

@BrokenWing, thanks for your reply. Definitely food for thought. It sounds like you chose a great school for your DS and he's doing really well.

I take your point about small schools. I checked the rolls and the village school is roughly 140 pupils, while the catchment school is about 210 pupils, so about 50% bigger. Average class sizes are roughly the same in both. Also a good point that villages can be cliquey - hmm...

They're very different schools. The catchment school is mostly SIMD Q1, while the village school is mostly SIMD Q5. Our postcode is SIMD Q1 as well, so I know that SIMD isn't the be all and end all, for sure (our house and street are very nice, imo!). However, the catchment school is the school I went to, albeit nearly 30 years ago, and there were a lot of really quite serious problems then. Ideally it'd be good to have more of a mixed population - they're at opposite extremes. DH went to a secondary in a very affluent area and some of his tales of the bullying that went on for not having the right trainers etc are horrible!

I have actually had contact with pupils from both schools in a job I had a few years back. The village school had a great reputation (as far as I know it hasn't changed much) and many of the pupils seemed to be high achievers. Now that sounds like I'm some awful helicopter pushy parent, and I swear I'm not! He's only 4! But he is a quiet boy, and if he takes after DH and I, he'll be quite academic/geeky. He does seem to be so far anyway - reading quite fluently already, etc. I think he'd fit in better in a school like that - it's not because I want him to be hothoused, but because I think he'd settle better with more children around who are more like him, if that makes sense. I just want him to be happy and get the grounding to go on to do whatever he wants in life - whether that's medicine at Oxbridge or a plumbing apprenticeship, I don't mind.

Now I feel like a raging snob. I hope none of what I said offends anyone. I definitely will update my outdated knowledge of both schools and visit them.

My DS is in a very small school, only 5 in his year group. Sometimes I worry about high school and what a shock it will be for him but the small school suits him so we'll just enjoy it while it lasts. If kids are naturally sociable, they'll make friends anyway. If they're quiet, putting them in a bigger school isn't going to make them more sociable. I'd say go for what's best for your child now. A happy primary school experience is what I would focus on.

Pp was correct. You apply to your catchment school first and apply to preferred choice.

Look out on local fb pages and ask at the school when enrolment week is. In my area it is the 20-24th November. Unfortunately, it can take a bit of time for them to get back to you in regards to placing requests.

Yep, I know about the process. Enrolment week is in January and placing requests have to be in by March.

When we submitted a placing request to a school that sounds very similar to the school you are applying to, we went in to see the head who was able to give us quite a bit of information on historic placing requests and also had a good idea about no children on catchment and sibling placing requests. It’s not an odd thing to ask at all and I’m sure they’ll be happy to speak to you.

It was a fab wee school however can I just echo a Pp about taking up a place at a village school when you don’t live there. It can be very cliquey and hard to break into in terms of play dates etc. Also friendship issues in small classes.

Secondary school might seem very far away now but believe me th time goes very fast and I really wish we had moved a lot earlier into the catchment area of the secondary school we wanted. We ended up moving the kids to the feeder primary so they could make friends before staying secondary. It was quite disruptive and I’d recommend getting things sorted earlier rather than later.

Our council publish data as to placing requests granted/declined for each school on their website. Might be worth a look to give you an idea.

@brokenwing - your story sounds so similar to someone I know, I wonder if it’s the same village school . Does the postcode end with AJ?

@fairytaleofwigan schools are in East Ayrshire don't know the post codes, but wouldnt surprise me if others have had similar experiences.