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Original poster

"Old Tongue" by Jackie Kay - set text for Nat 5.

32 replies

PiperPublickOccurrences · 03/10/2018 13:27

DS was quite cross about this poem which he has been studying in class as a set text for Nat 5 English.

www.childrenspoetryarchive.org/poem/old-tongue

It's about someone moving from Scotland to England as a child and bemoaning losing their accent and vocabulary.

DS has real issues with it. He has an English accent as he was born there, lived there until he was 7, his Dad is English and despite being in Scotland longer than he was ever in England, hasn't lost it. He's proud of his heritage. The very first line says the writer was "forced south" - because quite clearly no-one in their right mind would want to go to England of their own accord.

She uses words like "ghastly", "awful" and "dreadful" to describe English accents. She also asserts incorrectly that English people rhyme scone with stone - DH, DS and all the inlaws rhyme "scone" with "gone" - just as I do.

Now DS is perfectly capable of standing up for himself and arguing the toss with his English teacher over attitudes, reading for intent and having his nationalist propaganda detector set to pick up this sort of bullshit but really - this is an acceptable poem for kids to be looking at?

OP posts:
prettybird · 03/10/2018 15:07

I think you are letting your own prejudices colour your view of the poem.

When I was 13, I was "forced" to go to NZ. I had no choice, I didn't want to go but I was only a child - but I did retaliate by sulking for a year when I went because I didn't want to go (and then sulked for another year when we came back after 2 years because by then I'd made friends GrinConfused. My parents worked heard not to let me acquire a NZ accent (used to have to repeat Yes until I did so "acceptably" Wink). I didn't think it was a nationalist plot. Hmm

Why do you think that there are threads like this one on MN www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3365608-Do-you-know-what-is-meant-by-she-does-heehaw : nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with accents and different usage of language. I actually think it is an excellent poem to engage with kids about different words, their usage and how they are said.

WaxOnFeckOff · 03/10/2018 16:08

Well I just typed out a lovely well thought out post there (in my eyes anyway) and it's just disappeared!

The gist was that I can see both sides. I'm very anti SNP brainwash but also participated in the hee haw thread that remained reasonably anti political and it was more about a celebration of the rich culture of language.

On one hand I think the poem could be about anywhere and it's more about lost childhood and being transplanted against your will and seeing part of you disappear rather than necessarily a dogma about how Scotland = good and England = bad. However, I think in the current times it's not that appropriate for set text as we should be more inclusive about what it means to be Scottish. One of DCs friends was born and brought up in Scotland to English parents and yet still has a perfect Surrey accent, does he not count as Scottish then since he doesn't use the types of words in the poem? Others of all nationalities backgrounds and accents have chosen Scotland as their home.

And then I think about the wonderful borders sayings and our now local sayings that I have avoided passing on my DC as we wanted them to speak properly and in retrospect it makes me a bit sad. My DC do have Scottish accents but it's a generic homogenised accent rather than one that belongs to any area and they don't speak the language of the poem either.

Chillsmultiplying · 03/10/2018 16:16

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Passmethecrisps · 03/10/2018 16:16

I am not sure you are interpreting the poem in the same way as it is being taught. The new words are ghastly and awful. In that those are new words to her vocabulary.

It is a fairly simple poem about loss of colloquial speech when you move elsewhere. I cannot see any anti-English or nationalist agenda anywhere in it.

There is a nice wee clip of the poet talking about the poem on bbc bite size. That might reassure you a bit.

Original poster
PiperPublickOccurrences · 03/10/2018 16:18

I totally get the rich language thing but it;s not so much that but the way she describes the English accents in such negative terms. I also don't buy into the "scots language" thing, there is so much regional variation that there is no one language. The poem talks about "pokey hats" for ice cream cones and that's not something I ever heard growing up.

It can be read as VERY political and without any balance to it. I also don't think it's particularly good prose. They are studying other poems by the same writer which are on different topics, I think only one will come up in the exam.

OP posts:
Passmethecrisps · 03/10/2018 16:19

Oh and I say the above as no fan of “Scots” texts. My colloquial speech is completely different to someone from Glasgow or Aberdeen. I find the insistence on “scots” a bit irritating

Keeptrudging · 03/10/2018 16:20

This is not 'Nationalist propaganda' Hmm, it's a poem by a Scottish author, is part of the curriculum in Scottish schools, and deals with loss and identity. It's full of rich Scots words, which are part of our culture. It's meaningful to any child who has had to move/start again, and been the 'new kid' with the different accent/words. My DD loves this poem, it really resonated with her. 'Forced South' might as well be 'forced to move to a different town'.

Passmethecrisps · 03/10/2018 16:21

How is it being taught? Are they being encouraged to consider why new words might sound ugly to the ear of an 8 year old?

I honestly can’t see the political weight but maybe I am not looking for it. All I can see is a fairly basic poem being used as a vehicle for lots of words which will make some people smile

howabout · 03/10/2018 16:33

Sounds like your DS may be railing somewhat at having been "forced North".

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 03/10/2018 16:43

She uses words like "ghastly", "awful" and "dreadful" to describe English accents. She also asserts incorrectly that English people rhyme scone with stone - DH, DS and all the inlaws rhyme "scone" with "gone" - just as I do

I don’t think that is what it says though. Ghastly and awful aren’t used to describe anything and there are plenty of people in lots of areas of England who do rhyme scone with stone (they are all wrong incidentally and I hate this Grin)

It just seems like a general comment on starting over somewhere at a relatively young age, and what comfort etc we get from familiar language. I can’t see any issue.

I don’t love it personally but obviously some people do and it seems to give a lot relatively easy opportunities for analysis.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 03/10/2018 16:45

but the way she describes the English accents in such negative terms

Where does she do this though?

Lidlfix · 03/10/2018 17:01

She doesn't. They are used to show the way the elongated vowel sounds are heard by the 8 year old.

I am sure your DS is much nicer than you make him sound . Fortunately the pupils I teach don't argue the toss with me and they are a bright, sparky bunch with a fiesty sense of justice.

Do yourself a favour and don't bring it up at Parents Night. The Jackie Kay poems get great results at Nat 5 and are a big hit with pupils - probably the poor teacher's rationale. Oh and prepare yourself for Carol Ann Duffy "Originally" at Higher ...

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 03/10/2018 17:06

She doesn't

Good, I was worried that I couldn’t interpret a poem which school kids manage! Smile that’s a relief

Original poster
PiperPublickOccurrences · 03/10/2018 17:24

They are used to show the way the elongated vowel sounds are heard by the 8 year old.

But it's no coincidence that the words chosen have very negative connotations.

OP posts:
Keeptrudging · 03/10/2018 17:27

I'm just delighted to see DD really engaging with poetry, and interested in finding out more about the author. When she brought home her poetry booklet with the Nat5 pieces, we read them together and she liked most of them. Anything which enthuses a teenager is good in my book.

howabout · 03/10/2018 17:31

I give you an onion Lidi

Sadly on the dreaded Norman MacCaig with DD2.

Talith · 03/10/2018 17:36

I've had the pleasure of hearing Jackie Kay read and she's a wonderfully life-affirming person, and her poetry always soothes me so I'm surprised to hear that your son had this reaction! I'll have to look at the poem in question. It's good in a way, that he's had a strong reaction to it because he will have plenty to say about it. Poems should spark thoughts and ideas.

Copperbonnet · 03/10/2018 17:37

I think as a previous poster has already said that you (or your DS) are bringing personal issues to bear in this poem.

We forced our children to move to Texas. And yes, they were “forced” they didn’t want to move and we did it anyway (they love it now though)

They have, to a certain extent, changed their accents. Their vocabulary and expressions have certainly changed. If I showed that poem to my D.C. it would really speak to them.

I find it interesting that it doesn’t speak to your DS. After all he has experienced the exact same situation.

Nothing in the poem says “England is bad”. It says “England isn’t home”.

Talith · 03/10/2018 17:42

I've had a read and it's written from the perspective of the small child. Small children do frame things in unsubtle terms and see their parents reactions the same way. 'Ghastly' and 'awful' are not her opinion, but English words she has newly heard.

Lidlfix · 03/10/2018 17:48

Trudging- MacCaig with DD3 for Higher and Morgan with DD4 . Let me know if I can help with revision resources.

The words and also some of the Scots used "dour Scots tongue " represents exaggerated looks at at both accents. Were the natives upset at the connotations of "dour"? There is a mocking tone addressing both OP but your choosing to focus on the way only English accents are depicted.

Keeptrudging · 03/10/2018 18:48

Copperbonnet, as a child who had to be the new kid at 7 different schools, it really moved me. It is just that, nowhere else was 'home', the more I moved the less anywhere felt like home.

Munchmallow · 03/10/2018 19:17

This poem really gets to me. I moved to England as an adult but not exactly willingly (for exh's job). I like where I live and work and the people are friendly and welcoming but I mourn the loss of my Scottish words and people to share them with.

Thank you for sharing it OP.

CreamCol0uredP0nies · 04/10/2018 08:12

I can see both sides.
As a Scottish adult living in England, words like dreich, dour and thrawn are still part of my everyday vocabulary.
They’re not banned as soon as you cross the border.
Plus there are so many Scots down here, there’s always someone with whom you can enjoy the richness of the Scots language. ( agree about regional variations though - some phrases/ expressions I would never use)
The OP is taking about the experience of her son with an English accent in a Scottish school though, and depending on how the poem is taught and the general atmosphere, I can see the potential for it being uncomfortable for him.
I thoroughly dislike the politicisation of Scottish culture by the SNP so perhaps I’m a little cynical about the choice of this poem.
Hopefully, there is plenty of variety in the curriculum ?

cdtaylornats · 04/10/2018 13:39

Being about a move from Scotland to England does mean it shows a certain nationalistic prejudice when it could equally have been about a move from Aberdeen to Dumfries or Newcastle to Bournemouth.

If this was about a black kid from Edinburgh moving to London and bemoaning learning London patois would people be so sanguine about it?

Keeptrudging · 04/10/2018 13:57

It's poetry, it's all 'valid'! If it was a poem about a black kid moving from Edinburgh to London and having to learn patois it would also have a similar meaning. Jackie Kay didn't write this poem to piss people off, she wrote it based on her former partner's real-life experience.

www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zhv8t39/revision/1

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