Not doing Higher English

[PolkerrisBeach]

DS is in S4 and heading towards Nat 5. His teachers are already encouraging them to look ahead to the next choice point for Highers. DS is definitely headed for a science degree - Biochemistry, Microbiology, that sort of thing. He is adamant that he doesn't want to do Higher English.

We've looked on the websites for various unis and right enough, they demand something like AAABB at Higher including Chemistry and Biology. Another Uni demands AABB at Higher with the sciences, but also says "National 5 B/Standard Grade 2/Int 2 B; Maths National 5 B/Standard Grade 2/Int 2 B; English National 5 B/Standard Grade 2/Int 2 B)"

In my day (the dark ages according to DS), everyone did Higher English. Is it just not a "thing" any more? DS is planning on doing Higher History, so will have something more "Artsy" than just plain science, maths and computing.

Even if it doesn't specify Higher English, I would not drop it. Universities want you to show that you are rounded, even if you already know what you want to specialise in.

I know one young person who did history instead of English and got onto a medicine course but another who got rejected from Glasgow for geography despite 5 As at Higher because they didn't have Higher English. I think it's usually fine for pure science subjects but less safe for anything that can be Bsci or Ba like Geography.

It would be a BSc he's applying for, whatever the degree and university. He's doing fine at English, no concerns. But if it were a straight choice between English and History, he;d be much more motivated to do History.

As my late mum, who was a very good English teacher, used to say, even if you're going to go on and study/pursue a career in maths, science or medicine, you'll still going to have to read and write reports - skills that English gives you.

My own Higher teacher used to say the same thing.

For that reason alone, I think it's worth doing.

But also think about future flexibility: Ds was all set on doing a Science based degree (Maths/Physics/Astrophysics, with maybe some Chemistry or Geography) but was forced strongly encouraged by us to do English Higher alongside the Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Geography Highers.

Just as well, as between S5 and S6, he did a total volte face and decided he wanted to International Relations Without his English Higher, I doubt he would've got into Aberdeen to do PIR. (The crash Higher in Modern Studies he'd already started doing in S6 probably helped - but he got an unconditional, so it wasn't essential).

My friend's daughter was thinking of medicine, so knew she needed 5 As first sitting - English was a risk she couldn't take, so she took history instead, so she had an essay based subject. She got her As and her offers (although went down the genetics route in the end).

My advice is to try and get minimum B at Nat 5 in Maths and English as that is essential for many courses. Higher English is not essential and can be taken in 6th year in any case

My DS got an A at Nat 5 English and didn't take higher. All his highers were technical. Maths, Physics, engineering science, computer science and graph comm. He got 4 unconditional offers for a variety of computer science/engineering/software engineering. Didn't seem to be an issue not having English and he was clear it would be a tech subject he'd be doing.

He's keen to do Higher maths. Good point about S6 but that depends on him getting off his arse and passing well in S4 and S5!!

It may not be an issue with university, but could cause problems with an employer who might assume a lack of Higher English on a CV means poor aptitude at report writing and comprehension.

I don't have higher Maths and have an arts degree, I did get questioned about it at interviews until I'd worked for an investment bank. I assume after that my maths skills weren't in question!

DS2 is going into 2nd year of a BSc at Glasgow university and didn't do H English ("Couldn't be arsed with the poetry or plays"). Did 2 social sciences, 2 sciences and maths at H. Only applied to Glasgow and Strathclyde and got offers for all courses applied for even one where H English was recommended but not essential. However if I remember correctly Strathclyde's offers were on 4 subjects (ignored his less relevant social science) which was fine for him as he was confident of As in his other subjects. Did mean that Strathclyde and Glasgow offers were really similar so no real insurance offer. Worked out okay.

Two of his 3 science subjects (not Biology) in first year required an essay a term which he's found fine getting 2:2s and 2:1s. However he did say recently that he'd wished he had done H English as it would have kept teaching as a career option (he will need to do a H English catch-up course if he wants to apply).

My DS went to university after S5 but if he stayed on was planning to do H English in S6. If your son is thinking of doing in S6 check what sort of H English class he would be in. In my DCs low performing school S6s doing H English are in a class all together with no S5s. Most kids scraped a pass in national 5 English in S5 or failed H English in S5 . Class was geared towards scraping a pass in H English and wasn't exactly calm.

If he was really science orientated then I would be inclined to say fine, but would want to know why he wants to do History. It is quite a big step up from Nat 5 to Higher with a lot of the analysis of the text / source stuff which is common to English.

However he did say recently that he'd wished he had done H English as it would have kept teaching as a career option (he will need to do a H English catch-up course if he wants to apply).

You only need Nat5 B in English and Maths as a requirement for a PGDE.

@TheNavigator what university is offering PGDE without higher English. I'm currently looking at getting into teaching and I start my higher English tomorrow night.

I know plenty of successful people who do not have higher English but at 35 years old I'm kicking myself for not doing it earlier.

Sorry, I may be wrong about that! I only know for definite about the Nat5 Maths B because my DD managed to scrape that. We find English easy, it is the mathsy staff that has us scratching our heads, so never really looked into the English requirements, I just assumed it would be the same as maths - because that does make sense.

All Scottish unis require H English but only National 5 maths. DS2 thought taking geography to 2nd year university level would be an adequate alternative but apparently not. University of Aberdeen offer an online course instead of H English but not sure all Scottish unis accept this.

Clerk do you mean all Scottish unis require H maths for teaching? They definitely don't require it for all subjects. DS is very proficient in English and got a good A at Nat 5. He didn't want to do Higher as he didn't want to do any more of the stuff they teach which isn't overly relavent to working in his area. If there had been a higher English that was more focused on business writing and reports etc then that would be far more useful to those looking to work in science and technology. I appreciate there is an element of text analysis and general proficiency included in the current higher but imo it's too weighted to the arts side I think for those who don't particularly want to pursue that.

Scottish unis only require national 5 maths but do require H English or the equivalent plus the other requirements with respect to the subject you want to teach. I agree Wax, my DS2 would have happily done a less "artsy" English higher.

I don't disagree with you Wax - and I also think that they were very wrong to drop the precis exercise from Higher English. It was the one specific thing that you really did use later - so was a useful skill to have learnt (much as I loved studying Hamlet )

One of the English teachers on here has said that the long close reading question comes close.

I have also read elsewhere (partly on MN but also in RL discussions) that the ability to structure essays, ie a beginning, middle and end, is very helpful, to the extent that Science lecturers (even for subjects like Chemistry or Physics) can tell who has studied English as their essays/reports are more cohesive. But I suspect that doing any "discursive" subject: History, RMPS, Modern Studies, Politics, Geography, would develop that skill.

Ah well, he hasn't done any of those at Higher either.....:o

He did get As at Nat 5 for both Geography and English and has been talented enough at reading and writing all his life, I'm confident that he can cope with that part of the course. He was reading and writing at age 15 in primary 6 and still reads a lot for pleasure. He just didn't want to do it and given the other issues he has, we felt he needed a stress free year in S5. He was then sure which path he wanted to go down so didn't want to do it in S6 and we were fine with that.

From what you said about your ds Wax , he is will do well anyway. The spoken element of the English Higher wasn't absolutely not right for him and he was right to concentrate on his strengths

Thank you pb. If anything holds him back it will be his confidence, not his ability. I'm sure your DS will do well and through himself into his studies (and student life) and that harmony will soon be restored. I wish I had had the patience and understanding that I have now when my DSs were small. I find parenting teens much more rewarding (and easier). :o

"throw", not "through", you'd think I'd been on the sauce... :o

Thanks all for your input, I can't see him ever going down the teaching route but you never know.

Another compounding issue is his shockingly poor handwriting and presentation. This has been raised as an issue since P1 and we've been through so many assessments and interventions to try to help.

He ticks so many of the boxes for dyspraxia - not just the poor handwriting but the struggle to tie his shoelaces, difficulty working in groups, easily distracted, difficulty catching/throwing. He was formally assessed in P5 or P6 but we didn't get very far - the system is SO overstretched that they basically told me that as he is achieving, happy and well-behaved there was nothing they could do. So he doesn't have the official diagnosis. I have a meeting with school next week as they have raised the possibility of him doing some of his exams digitally rather than writing by hand. I would assume these would be the "essay" subjects like English and History.

So I think this is partly what's putting him off doing English - all the writing and the teacher constantly being on his case about his rubbish writing.

(He's so going to end up in a lab somewhere with very little human contact dealing with microbes all day. And he'll be as happy as Larry).

Both my DSs have handwriting issues, neither have a diagnosis. We were told after initial investigations that DS1 was borderline aspergers but we didn't pursue a formal diagnosis at the time as it was likely to be borderline and at the time he was doing well. He's 18 now and I'm still not sure if he is or isn't and whether we made the right choice. DS2 almost certainly has dyspraxia but again has some things that would dispute that. I think it caused him issues with his brain organisation and he underperforms. However, despite lack of diagosis, both boys have completed their exams using IT. They get spell check switched off though!

It's definitely worth pursuing that for your DS. DS2 says he actually finds it helps him think better and has the added advantage of being able to note down his th ought s in the order they come to him and he can then reshuffle into a meaningful answer. He was wary at first as he didn't want to be different!

Definitely pursue IT for exams, it made a huge difference to DS2, he had terrible writing, really struggled to get what was in his head into paper, bottom group in primary, needed a scribe for extended writing. He was allowed extra time and IT for exams and ended up with an A band 1 for Advanced Higher English ( sorry about the stealth boast, I'm still on a bit of a high about his results!).

I don't think he'll be bothered about being in a separate room using a computer for some exams. His keyboard skills are OK but typing not fast, which we're encouraging him to work on. We'll see what school have to offer and then discuss with him.