External Candidates

[celtiethree]

Hi, does anyone know if there is any facility to sit sqa exams outside school? I’m particularly interested if anyone knows a way of sitting higher music anywhere as an external candidate? A college or independent school perhaps. Thx

I think that the Scottish system is not very geared up for external candidates. I know someone who, for various mostly health related reasons ended up home educating her dd and ended up having to move to England temporarily to sit A levels

Is there any other local school/college which the school would allow you to work with so that the Higher Music can be sat there? I know ds' old school often worked with the local private school (and vice versa) and/or the local college to allow pupils to sit "other" exams/make a course viable.

@wigglybreezer tutored her DS in a maths exam which I presume he sat as an external candidate somewhere as he'd already left school. She might have some info? Only an exam for Maths though so less assessment required. Music would require a practical assessment of 2 instruments plus D'S has to compose a piece and have that assessed so there is a bit more involved.

Would the ABRSM or Trinity route be any good? Higher is about Grade 4/5 and if you add in Grade 5 Theory that covers most of the syllabus. UCAS points only accredited for Grade 6 upwards though. May be worth a call to the Conservatoire to ask for options.

I am wondering this too as we live in a council area which limits all students to 6 Nat 5s (inc English and Maths) and we (along with many other parents and teachers) feel this unfairly disadvantages students who wish to compete nationally and internationally with students who have been given the opportunity for a much broader education. We would like DS to sit at least 1, if not 2, extra Nat5s but need somewhere to both learn them and sit the exams. I have considered Home educating him for perhaps an additional language, or for RE which are 2 of his options but would prefer an outside place to teach if possible.

Any ideas?

It's a shame that the Scottish system is so inflexible when it comes to actually sitting exams. For subjects like music where many students actually learn their instruments and theory outside school you would think there would be another way .

DC2 is already sitting ABRSM for one instrument and has sat the Scottish Trad Exams in the other. They can already play well above the higher requirement and will drop down grades for this. The reason for trying to squeeze in the higher is to maximise highers in S5 that meet minimum requirements, as although ABRSM will gain tariff points acceptance onto courses is still v much based on highers sat, ideally in one sitting. At the moment DC has two on the 'general' list, Glasgow for example will only accept one, whereas music is on the academic list. I can easily arrange tuition outside school for the 'listening' and for guidance in what is required for composition. A max of one hour a week would do it. I have approached their school but it seems to be difficult to arrange and I'm not confident.

Unf we can't squeeze it in with their other subject choices and to be honest it seems a waste to take it when they are pretty much there already, there are not that many additional concepts to learn and the composition wouldn't take a huge amount of effort.

If it doesn't work out it's not a disaster as DC is actually interested in art school and the subjects they have chosen for S5 facilitate this - I'm just thinking ahead in case of a change of mind.

You have my sympathy Tami 6 nat 5s is rubbish. Essentially you have pretty much chosen highers at the end of the broad and general phase, the only upside is the ability to pick up crash highers in S6.

There are lots of options for languages if you live anywhere near a City. However if you just want an extra Nat 5 it is probably not worth it. DDs' school allows crash Highers in languages and RMPS (RE) in S5 / S6 which makes sense given a language is compulsory till end S3 and RE core till end S4. Having an extra Nat 5 makes no difference on Uni applications etc.

celtie in that case your DS is sort of in the same boat as my 2. DD1 is Grade 7/8 in 3 instruments but didn't want to go to Music school. She opted to do 5 traditional "Academic" highers in S5 and is crashing Advanced higher music in S6. The school had no issue with this as so much of the assessment is performance related and she already had that aspect covered. (Much better to concentrate on doing 5 Highers well than chase your tail doing 6 for no long term advantage - Higher Art is a lot of work).

DD2 is very good at Art but doesn't want to go to Art school. Again she is doing 5 "Academic" subjects in S5 and then picking up Art again in S6. She is also playing standard to do Advanced Higher Music but atm has no plans to do so - she may yet change her mind if she can't think of anything else to fill her timetable with.

They have a friend who wants to do Architecture at the Art school. They were prioritising Art but now realise they need to crash Higher Physics in S6, which I think will be hard work. Another friend has an A in Advanced Higher Music from S5 but the Conservatoire were much more interested in his performance standard.

My thinking re: extra Nat5s is three-fold - 1) to give them extra options for Highers. 2) to enable them to compete nationally if we choose to move to another part of the U.K. where students have had a much broader education up to age 16. 3) to give them a broader education because we believe this is valuable whether you need the exam results for uni or not.

For instance, our DS is good at languages, however his school only teaches French so no option for a 2nd language. He would like to take French, RE, History and Physics for his 4 optional Nat5s, however his school often doesn’t teach RE past 3rd year as there is little interest. He would also like to do Spanish, Modern Studies and possibly Music. I would have liked him to do some kind of ICT/Computing/DT type subject too, or another science so that he has a better humanities/STEM balance, but the school doesn’t allow for that.

It’s so frustrating - I am fed up of politicians and councillors playing politics with our kids education

Tami I agree it is very limiting to do only one science. What happens in S5 for science minded students?

Well the thing is, science minded students can do all 3 sciences at Nat5, and then alongside maths and English, just choose 1 other subject - which is equally limiting - just in another way!

Thanks Tami, the main interest in squeezing in music is to make it 5 academic rather than the current 4, it’s a shame that early presentation for higher music was not allowed last year. For some reason their school is ok with early presentation for maths but not music.

If it doesn’t work out, and you’re right art is going to keep them v busy, will look to see if straight to AH for music in S6 is possible.

If it's any consolation I also know people who have been caught out with early presentation. They are bilingual so got an A in Higher language in S4. Unfortunately this was their best subject and the Unis wouldn't count it because it was not one of the 5 in S5.

I do wonder if this is ever a factor re early Maths presentation, though I suspect not as the route seems to be to also do Advanced Higher Maths a year early in S5? Or do they do Maths in S4 and then only 4 in S5, which is also risky as bumps standard entry from AAABB to AAAA for Ancient Unis?

As far as I know it’s AH maths in 5th year or 5 highers. Perhaps it works as AH maths is still all exam based whereas other subjects have very time consuming projects as part of the assessment.

Tami in that case I would go with English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Humanity, Language (would have been Art for my 2).

I am v old fashioned so would choose History, but am assured by HoD at our school that doing any one allows students to pick up another to crash in S5/S6 as it is the core analysis skills picked up in Nat 5 which matter. The knowledge content doesn't build from Nat 5 to Nat 6, but is topic choice dependent. DD2 also considering this so I asked about History / Geography.

Very few schools I know allow triple science in Nat 5 but it is fairly standard to do Chemistry and Physics and then crash Biology in S5 or S6.

For ref DH is English so we know loads of people with DC at all ages and stages and aptitudes in the system. If they are doing Ebacc and academic they are doing English x2, Maths, Science x3, Language, RE, Humanity. They are then narrowing to 3 A Levels. They don't have more breadth and less choice sadly. The Arts are being squeezed out in lots of places.

DS is likely to go down the humanities route eventually, but in terms of ability he is a very good all-rounder and I really do believe in encouraging a breadth of subjects in order to use all parts of the brain and be used to different ways of learning/studying etc for as long as possible.

My guess is that his highers will be English, History, French, RE and then something else. At uni I suspect he will go down the law or politics route (possibly with a language alongside) or else Theology. His great love in life is literature, so English is always a possibility, but I get the feeling he will choose to study in a different direction and keep literature as a personal love rather than a uni/career choice.

I’m N.Irish and DH is English. We both have siblings who teach in our respective home countries and plenty of friends who teach here in Scotland. It’s hard to get to grips with a system that is so different to the ones we know (and trust) so well. (It also doesn’t help that we are in zone for a very poor school which doesn’t seem to have a lot of desire to push academic kids and is more concerned with link ups with the local college for vocational courses. This is great for the less-academically able/minded kids, but not so great for those who are very academic and want the best opportunities available)

I hear you on that Tami. In a similar position where I am hence the geekery. Currently having to dig my heels in re consortium arrangements for the only Advanced Higher DD really wants to do, even though she got an A at Higher.

One of the reasons I come on MN is I get so frustrated at the lack of decent advice for academic DC at standard schools. It was the same in my day but there seemed to be fewer restrictions from the Unis then - eg no LNat, only accepting certain subjects

In theory, the schools that do fewer Nat 5s have continued a wider range of subjects to a higher level in S3, thus making it easier to pick them up again as crash Highers (or even Advanced Highers) in S5 or S6.

I can understand the theory - but am pleased that ds was at a school which allowed 8 Nat 5s It also timetabled to allow 3 sciences at both Nat 5 and for Highers.

One of the boys in ds' year presented early for Maths in S3 (Nat 5), S4 (Higher) and S5 (Advanced Higher). There was also a class of S3s this year who were presented early for English Nat 5 (must check how the one boy I knew doing this got on ) They've still to decide what to do with them this year but the head teacher (an English teacher herself) isn't keen on them going Higher English in S4 (not enough maturity) so they may do English Higher over 2 years, to allow them to squeeze in another Nat 5 or even another Higher, or just have a year off doing English. (The depute in charge of timetabling was wincing as she said this )

Ds crashed Higher Modern Studies in S6, having dropped it at the end of S2. With hindsight he could have crashed the AH in Modern Studies.

The theory of CfE and the 3 years of the BGE is that it is very flexible and sets the young people up with the foundation to do a wide range of exams. At ds' school - even though they stretch the definition of the 3 years of the BGE - that seems to be how they've implemented it. But it does have the advantage of being one of the biggest secondaries in Glasgow and can pretty much cater for any subject a pupil wants to do.

That sounds like your school is actually relatively flexible pretty which is really positive.

In our school the kids have to make their choices at the end of S2 so they definitely narrow very quickly. There is also quite a narrow range of subjects. I do understand that a lot of that is down to teacher availability, and also timetabling issues if only a few pupils want to take a certain subject, but it still sucks! (No RE or Home Ec for Nat5 for the last 2 years, (3 years for Home Ec) as not enough interest. No offer of politics as a higher/AH subject choice. (DS is very annoyed about this!) Only one language offered in the school etc etc)

In addition to this we seem to have little flexibility in individual schools. The council have mandated no more than 6 Nat5s in 4th year and schools aren’t allowed to make their own decisions on that. In addition the council have also mandated that the only subject you can do early is music which is frustrating for several pupils I know who would have liked to have done maths early in S3, but weren’t allowed to, despite the fact they almost certainly would have got an A and it would have freed up an extra subject slot for them in S4. I honestly don’t know if all councils work like this but it drives me mad!

Ds' school also gets them to make their choices at the end of S2 (runs a Careers Night and Subject Choices information session in the January for S2s and S4s and their parents) - but that's so that they can them do 8 Nat 5s.

To give Glasgow City Council its due, it leaves the choice of how many Nat 5s a school allows its pupils to take is up to the individual schools. I've had my complaints about GCC over the years, but it does allow the schools (especially the secondaries) a large amount of autonomy

My DS was actually signed up as a distance learning candidate at Dundee College, we just ignored the online support as it didn't suit DS's learning style but we trailed to Dundee for unit tests and exams.
I have been doing ongoing research into non school/ college options as DS needs a science qualification for his long term goal and I did discover that The Saturday School, a private revision/ tutoring company in Glasgow is now an SQA accredited exam centre and offers a small range of Nat 5s and Highers, it seems to include Saturday morning classes and the exam and assignments but I haven't read the small print, not much use for DS1 who has a retail job. Basil Paterson College in Edinburgh also offers exam sittings for external candidates, the difficulty being written coursework and assignments.
I am actually looking into IGCSEs as they are exam only and can be sat at Basil P college but they are two year courses so don't dovetail well with the Scottish system, however there is loads of revision material available and there is also a January sitting as well as June so could work well for someone who has already left school.
Not much help for music unfortunately but may help anyone who has a child wanting to fit in an extra subject.

Tami - despite not doing Politics (although I think one of his school friends who'd done Modern Studies in S5 crashed either Higher or maybe AH Politics in S6), ds is off to Aberdeen to study Politics and International Relations (in just two weeks )

He crashed Higher Modern Studies in S6 (and got an A , alongside his AHs in Maths and Physics ) but had already been offered an Unconditional, despite a science heavy set of Highers from S5 (although he had done English and Geography, alongside his Maths, Physics and Chemistry)

Good to know pretty. I actually know a lot of people who did politics and IR at Aberdeen back in the day - I can see it being the kind of course DS would like to get into if not law or theology. (he ultimately I think would like to work in some kind of globally-focussed non-profit role) Not in Aberdeen though - I think he’d do anything to get out of here 😉

(It’s a great city to study in - just not our cup of tea since then! Hope your DS settles in quickly.)

Ds also got an Unconditional from Strathclyde but he didn't want it for a similar reason that your ds wouldn't want Aberdeen

I agree that Nat 5s and Highers are too narrow. My DD is learning 2 languages at home, and I aim to put her through the TEFL type exams for those, at a higher level than Highers. She's also doing an IGCSE in a different subject by correspondence course, though I'm not sure about her sitting the exam. She's enjoying it to the extent that she will probably choose to do the subject at school too, as a Higher. Different syllabuses obviously, and she would be learning different things. I would look at IGCSE options rather than trying to stick with the Scottish system. For music I would stick with ABRSM practical and theory.

My DD took AH Music in 6th year without having being in a class as there was a clash on her timetable. She took classical singing to a high standard outside school and had one lesson a week from a visiting instructor in tuned percussion in school. I don't think she had any dealings with the music dept all year. She sat the exam and had the practical in school along with the 'official' AH class'.

She got an A with very high marks in practical, but slipped more in her theory as she hadn't been working so much on the listening side of the exam. It was fine though and the school had no problem with it.