What would be a good time to change schools from England to Scotland?

[ARoomSomewhere]

If at all...
I have a house in Scotland.
Kids went to Primary there.
Been in England for 2 yrs (semi temporarily)
Aim to come back but not sure when best?
Do they have to live in Scotland to apply for free uni place?
Or be educated in Scotland for 6th form?
Not sure when best to disturb them?
(they are 11 and 14, just)

Anecdotally, my DS went to boarding school in England but has always resided in Scotland. With 11 A at GCSE and predicted 3 A for A level on his application last year he wasn't offered a place at Edinburgh or St. Andrews!

I know many kids with similar and better grades in SQA exams from state schools in Scotland who didn’t get into the course they wanted either. Some courses are vastly over subscribed with many strong applicants. It’s not always all about grades.

Agree with pretty Scottish University’s don’t care if you have A levels or highers, they do care if you are classed as resident in England or Scotland, if your residency is the latter it makes it significantly harder to gain a place and your grade requirements will probably be higher. It’s all to go with the cap placed on numbers for Scottish/EU students. I don’t understand why more is not made of this in the press and why there is an acceptance that free tuition is necessarily all good - the amount that the Scottish government pays is paltry

Rosemary you said " I know many kids with similar and better grades in SQA exams from state schools in Scotland who didn’t get into the course they wanted either. Some courses are vastly over subscribed with many strong applicants. It’s not always all about grades."
I don't deny many courses are oversubscribed and I'm not suggesting that my privately educated DS has more right to a place than someone who attended state school (however, I dispute you know many kids with the same or better results than 11A at GCSE and 3 A at A level as frankly unless he had been able to take more subjects it would have been impossible for him to "do better"). However the OP was concerned about attending school in England but applying to Scottish Universities whilst being a Scottish resident and I could anecdotally give an honest account of my DS's experience.

I agree with Celtie - I find it extraordinary that Scottish parents are not more vocal about the cap and the resulting few places available to our kids at Scottish Universities. The reality is that the popular oversubscribed courses will be filled up primarily with full fee paying students and not our own kids so therefore it makes me suspect that many of our kids (not all) only get accepted on courses not as attractive to the paying students.

Thomasinaa - i have no idea if there is an issue with Scottish kids at Scottish Boarding schools gaining places (I will no doubt find out as my DD is at a Scottish boarding school but a few years away from applying to Uni) but again I have heard from parents that a couple of schools were saying to 6th formers about the difficulties of getting a place at Scottish Universities. However, let's be honest, for the vast majority of pupils who attend boarding schools I would think their choice of university will be based much more on the course they want (wherever that is likely to be) as they will likely have the money to fund it and they won't have to consider whether they can afford the fees so they perhaps have more freedom to apply for English Universities or even to the states etc. I am in no way implying that Scottish state school kids don't apply for the courses of their choice but for many the practical motivation may well be to remain in Scotland to avoid the debt, which is perfectly understandable and reasonable.

I’ve just gone and read a number of articles. Am I understanding correctly that there’s both a cap on numbers of Scottish students and also targets around access for the poorest 20% of postcodes.

I’d always taken it for granted that my DD would have no trouble getting into a decent uni course providing she got decent grades. I’m not assuming anymore!

Yes, this has been an eye-opener for me too. So to go to a top uni Scottish students have to pay full fees AND go far from home.

The last year has been a real learning curve for me as DC1 was applying to university, this is what I have learned but please note this is solely my experience based on what I have learned through the application process, trawling through prospectuses and reading forums.

It's tough for Scottish students wanting to study in Scotland. Yes there is a cap and there is a focus on SIMD post codes which means that there are may factors in play that may not be transparent to all applicants.

5th year is key. Highers in one sitting or at least gained by the end of 5th year are what unlocks acceptance into the widest range of universities, not tariff points but exam results. This is why on another thread I have asked about sitting higher music, ABRSM is great but it's not a higher - maximising higher grades in S5 is what it is all about. For example a standard offer from Glasgow may be AAABB after S5 but if this is not achieved it changes to AAAAAB after S6.

If you don't achieve in S5 then do not waste applications - after 5th year St Andrews, Edinburgh and Glasgow were not in consideration for DC1 - we focussed on maximising chances on other excellent options.

There is always a way forward, the Scottish system is brilliantly flexible and many friends DC have done brilliantly by following HNC/HND routes and slotting into university in 2/3rd year.

English students seem to focus on Edinburgh and St Andrews, possibly Glasgow. Aberdeen/Dundee/Strathclyde if they offer courses that your DC are interested in should absolutely be included (please note this is not an exhaustive list just some that were on our radar) !!!!

Some universities focus more on personal statements than others - St Andrews!! Focus shd be on why your DC want to study the subject. Anecdotally Glasgow don't look at personal statements unless you are on the margin of an offer.

DC1 was probably a margin student as their offers came in much later than others in this forum - so it is important to have a story to tell but don't get hung up on Duke of Edinburgh etc focus on the subject and why you add value. Nip over to the further/higher education forums and read how many admission officers on there that tell you that its academic focus that counts.

If your DC has a poor grade in 5th year a resit is OK - DC1 got 5 offers including the 3 universities mentioned about with a condition placed on the resit - 2nd time round was a breeze but ploughing on to AH would probably have been much harder.

Studying in England is a great alternative but you need to focus on making sure that your DC can sit the relevant AHs in 6th year as there is likely to be conditions set on AH results.

DC2 is up next and to be honest I'm exhausted just thinking about how to navigate the next two years.

excuse the typos above - hope it still makes sense

Yes it makes sense. I have a few years to go as DD is still in primary, but she already has ambitions of Glasgow or Edinburgh.

There’s a bit of a sting in the tail of the free tuition beast it seems.

Rosemary you said " I know many kids with similar and better grades in SQA exams from state schools in Scotland who didn’t get into the course they wanted either. Some courses are vastly over subscribed with many strong applicants. It’s not always all about grades."

I don't deny many courses are oversubscribed and I'm not suggesting that my privately educated DS has more right to a place than someone who attended state school (however, I dispute you know many kids with the same or better results than 11A at GCSE and 3 A at A level as frankly unless he had been able to take more subjects it would have been impossible for him to "do better)*

How odd that you would dispute this! Your logic seems to be:

My son couldn’t have got got any better grades then he did in his circumstances at his school therefore he must be the best qualified candidate who is applying in the whole country and if he didn’t get an offer it must be discrimination.

You don’t seem to understand that many applicants from good state (and private schools) get 9A at National 5 , 5 or 6 A at Higher and then sit a further 3-4 subjects at 6th year.

In addition they may have other points bearing qualifications in music etc .

They will usually be applying from 5th year so already have the qualifications that your son hopes for.

So they WILL be better qualified academically than your son who has GCSEs and some good predictions. Some schools are notorious for over inflated predictions and admissions officers know this.

So other applicants will have the same points at GCSE / national 5 PLUS perhaps 6-7 A at Higher PLUS 3 good A levels.

You are also forgetting that some courses have interviews or other entry criteria eg UKCAT. Others screen personal statements and expect evidence of an interest in the subject that goes beyond school or relevant work experience .

Some give extra points / lower offers to applicants from schools in deprived areas.

So please don’t be so rude as to tell me that I don’t know any kids better qualified that your son when I have stated clearly that I do. So will teachers and parents at many schools across Scotland.

I know this can be a sensitive subject for some parents ( I have no idea if you are one of them ) who choose to privately educatate their children, especially at boarding school. They have invested a huge amount of money in their child’s education in the belief that they will get better grades than everyone else and this will automatically open the door to any place they want at any university and then everything they want in the future.

So people can become very angry and upset to realise that wee Courtney / Kai from the local high school / comp has done just as well or even better. And will be very positively regarded by most admissions officers who have a duty to increase the number of students from non- traditional backgrounds.

Would you be able to get any EU country’s passport for your children OP? I have heard anecdotally (from one of our graduates) of EU residents living and working in the south of England whose children where born and educated in UK, but they chose a passport for their children from the EU country the parents are from; the children attend a Russell group uni in Scotland for free.
Don’t know how this is going to work after Brexit though.
I have been unable to find a breakdown of numbers for EU and Scottish students; the small number of institutions who publish numbers lump these two groups together.
I found information on the review of higher education by the Scottish government and it was suggested by heads of Scottish universities and colleges that less EU and more Scottish places should be available within these capped numbers but the Scottish government stated they were not keen on this course of action.

Universities are more than happy to accept English students that pay £9+k to help out their finances. Edinburgh University publish offer rates, French for example offer rates to English students 80%, same for maths. Offer rates Scottish students 25% for French, 30% for maths. For some courses offer rates for Scottish students are less than 10%.

I think this is a misleading comparison. Most Scottish students will have an aspirational punt at Edinburgh. However only English students with a reasonable hope of getting in and a special desire to go to Edinburgh will bother applying.

It can also be very misleading to try to compare bald qualification stats. Almost all highly academic Scots will have an A in both Maths and English highers. Hardly any A level qualified students will (this includes Scottish private school educated children doing A levels). This matters for a lot of the highly competitive PPE type courses and even for Law / Accountancy and Medicine.

In terms of funding incentives all Unis would much rather have a non-EU student paying full fees because they are more than x2 £9k (they also like to build links with International exchange programmes through this route). For most STEM subjects £9k doesn't cover the cost of the course so there is no cross subsidy from English students.

Ancient Unis are much less dependent on students for finance than everyone else anyway as most of their income is research generated. Their main interest is in maintaining student standards and this means recruiting Worldwide beyond a population of 5m.

Rosemary and Celtie have given great advice on the best way to maximise opportunities.

I have an S2 and a P7 equiv currently in the English system.

I wondered about 'bringing them across' for Scottish 6th form and when and if (given their ages) this would be possible?

I am not sure i am any clearer but perhaps im being dopey.

but i seem to have started a thread that has been interesting / useful so i am very glad of that :)

But there is no such thing as Scottish 6th form unless you are going to send them to an independent school that follows the English curriculum.

The most important year here is S5 with Highers, whereas S6 is used to gain more Highers or Advanced Highers.

I assume you would need to move the oldest once they have completed their GCSEs, remembering that the Higher course probably starts in June once the students are back after sitting their Nat5s.

Just seen a message from a friend who had DS in DD1's class and then moved to England. Had to do a double take as he is now in the year below DD. Worth bearing in mind that an Autumn born DC will finish Scottish S6 aged 17, but if they were in England they would be in the year below and 18 by end of 6th Form.

Three of my children have attended Glasgow, Edinburgh and now St Andrews Unis. All are state educated, but not a low SIMD school. Exactly the opposite. Good grades and a strong personal statement will give any good Scottish student a fair chance. Glasgow Uni will offer any Scottish student with 4A's and over an unconditional for most courses (excluding medicine, vet med, dentistry and engineering) and don't even look at personal statement if the grades are achieved. For St Andrews the personal statement is important.

Agreed 1nutcracker, worth bearing in mind that it does depend hugely on the course - DD got all unconditional offers (from Glasgow, Edinburgh, St Andrews and Strathclyde) for science/engineering courses but a friend who also had 6 As at higher (after 5th year) got conditionals from everywhere as he wanted to do medicine.

I don't think any of the Unis accept anyone till after 6th year for Medicine and they don't like people doing nothing for a year so tend to put conditions on offers - why there is little point doing 6 in 5th.

Even when giving Unconditionals now many Scottish Unis stipulate that they must be told if a student drops a subject, for precisely that reason HOWABOUT. Don't know if they actually act upon it or it's just a threat, but common now.

Not sure ds got any such stipulation from Aberdeen Uni for his Unconditional (state school with a very mixed demographic and a high proportion of SIMD 1&2). But there again, he wouldn't let us see any of his Uni correspondence so who knows

He still continued to work hard though and got good results - As in the 2 subjects he cared about (AH Maths and crash H in Modern Studies - relevant for his degree) and a C in the subject he no longer cared about (AH Physics - which was also the day before his Modies exam, so its revision got sacrificed for the exam he cared about).

Glasgow and Edinburgh do. We were told by the school that they've been doing it for a couple of years. Thought they were scaremongering, until I saw it on unconditional offers.

DS got unconditional offers from Glasgow, Strathclyde, Heriot Watt and Dundee, none of them had any stipulations. HW and Strathclyde both gave additional offers for 2nd year which were supposedly conditional on 2 Bs from his 3 AHs but one of them, can't remember which, said that they probably wouldn't hold him to that. He definitely didn't want to start in 2nd year so he turned those offers down and then didn't make any effort in his AHs, though still passed them all with Cs

My son's did, even though they were unconditionals. School said it was common practice now.

I’ve just asked my kids ( 6th year and 2nd year uni ) about this and they have never heard of it - conditions on an unconditional offer. And between them they know about 200 kids who applied / are applying through UCAS to Scottish unis.

They say that AFATK the universities write to the school asking them to encourage the kids wth unconditional offers to stay at school throughout 6th year . So maybe some schools are( quite rightly ) using this to put on pressure.

They are under the imporession that this is a general letter and not specific to any one pupil, school or university .

But of course they might be wrong.

As others have said , the hard to get into courses of medicine , dentistry and vet med won’t give unconditionals whatever your grades in S5. Although some conditions are very low - Glasgow last year was asking for one B at AH.

DD just told he it was Edinburgh or Napier that wrote to their school, she can’t remember which as she hadn’t applied there.

My son had written on the bottom of his Unconditional offer from Glasgow Uni, that he must notify them if he dropped or changed any subjects from those on his UCAS app. His school said some unis have done this for a couple of years now. I called Glasgow Uni and they told me they never check, but it's on all unconditionals now, to "encourage" pupils to stay on and continue with their studies.