Withdrawing from the SNSA

[stargirl1701]

Does anyone else have a child in P1 who is withdrawing consent for the SNSA? I've written a letter for DD1 to take with her today.

Yes, I am definitely withdrawing mine and spoke to the HT at enrolment.

What did you write? I was thinking...

As 'Child's' parent, I withdraw consent for X to sit any of the SNSAs during this academic term?

I wrote:

We do not consent to X undertaking the SNSA. We have full confidence in her teacher's assessment and feel the test would provide no additional or worthwhile information.

Thanks. The HT was unsure if it was life-time disqualification, as it were, or only in P1.

I have a DD1 in P3 so the P4 ones aren't too far away for her. I haven't heard much about them.

Pray, why? What nonsense...

Because, by all accounts, they are too long and too hard for Primary One children.

Is this the tests my son would have done in P1 just before the holidays?

He didn't even know he had done any tests; I only knew because his teacher mentioned them in passing!

Not sure I'd object to something so standard and basic unless I had massively strong reasons or objections.

Totally respect your right as parents to have a say in these matters, but as Reeva said most children won't have really known they were being assessed. There's no doubt the tests need to be reviewed and it's true that they take some time to complete - but the chances are your DCs will end up sitting in the same computer suite "playing different games" while other children complete them.

Schools have had a year to identify how best to deliver the assessments to children of different ages however, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask how your DC's school plans to run them this year. Assessments can be stopped and restarted at any time, so can be done over as long or as short a period as necessary, as long as there's a computer (and supervision) available. You should also be reassured that the assessments are merely one of many tools a teacher uses to make their professional judgement about your DC's progress.

I just don't think it's appropriate.

I couldn't be any further from being an snp supporter, but the coverage that has been given to these tests has been appalling.
As it has been said, very likely the tests will have to be reviewed, but there is really no reason whatsoever to withdraw a child as a matter of principle.

Another here whose p1 didn’t know he had sat a test (and he would have struggled with the content). I totally respect different views and am not at all in favour of SATS style stress for wee kids but saw no evidence they were doing harm in my son’s class.

I disagree with them as a teacher and as a parent in P1.

DH and I are members of Upstart. The SNSA are merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issues in P1.

https://www.upstart.scot

Is this standard in all Scottish schools? I've a DC who is going into P2 and he never said about tests or did any teacher. I did see a report on the tests on STV news but I assumed it hadn't reached my area yet.

My DD is going into P1 next week.

@stargirl1701 could you explain a little more about your thinking? I don't know much about the tests but I'm interested to learn.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cL1MxhTeuV4&feature=youtu.be

@stargirl1701, I have read your website, and although I share a lot of what is being said, I feel you didn't really made the point as to why the P1 tests are detrimental.
I would have thought that the fact that it takes away time from "teaching" to be a bonus in your opinion. And as to learning, why shouldn't it be a learning experience?
Besides, in my very limited experience, primary school as a whole is pretty much a glorified kindergarten already and I would find it difficult to make it even more play oriented. Perhaps we should do away with the box ticking that afflicts all the teachers, from preschool onwards, but that is another matter.
I also feel that the comparison with northern countries to be on the whole misleading because we have one HUGE handicap, i.e. the fact that we speak (and write in) English, which is so much more fiendishly difficult than, say Finnish. Looking at your table it would be more interesting to see what they do in Canada and Ireland, rather that, say, Finland where it would be normal to start school being already able to read and possibly write, with zero effort from anyone.
For me, my HUGE bee in the bonnet is that in Scotland they don't teach reading using phonics, despite their protestations, but instead they employ some kind of mixed method that not even the teachers are able to explain.
The question, if you like, is why are English children pushing ahead when they used to be behind? I feel that the testing for P1s, as you yourself said, is just the tip of the iceberg. There are much more pressing matters to attend to.

Lastly, I would have thought that as a member of upstart you would have some kind of standard wording already in place. As your stance is political, you should make it clear in your letter of objection, otherwise how can you enlighten the HT?

I don't really understand why you've posted if you can't really be arsed engaging in discussion. I understand the play-centred education thing. From what I can see, play is basically all my children did in P1 - or at least that's all they thought they did.

Still struggling to see the problem unless you actually come out and explain what it is.

Currently in school in the staff room. Not much time for debate at the moment!

God, sorry

You weren't yesterday though, and all you've done is post a link to a website and a video. I was just keen to hear more about what the objections might be, as a parent of kids in Scottish schools.

No, yesterday was DD1's first day of school so I was off.

As a teacher, my concerns are about how this type of testing always ends up 'high stakes' regardless of how it begins.

I've been teaching 20 years. I watched the 5-14 assessments move from 'confirming the teacher's judgement' to a high stakes test that children had to pass at certain stages even if that meant sitting that level multiple times.

The SNSA tests have been adapted by the Australian private company that developed NAPLAN. Again, a testing regime that started innocently and became high stakes. It also explains why Scottish children were being asked questions about Australian birds in the SNSA. It probably didn't occur to the Australian developers that the fauna was different.

I believe in a Kindergarten stage with a developmental pedagogy rather than a norm referenced curriculum. CfE started out as a developmental curriculum that should have pushed the best nursery practice into P1 to unify the Early Level.

A developmental approach would mean every child would have the input that they need. Not phonics just because you are in P1. Phonics for the hyperlexic 3 year old and play for the not yet ready 5 year old. No one is 'kept back'.

I have a colleague who taught a hugely successful 'One-ery' where the nursery combined with P1 into the same space. The nursery children had access to a GTC registered teacher and the P1s had access to the experienced ECPs. It was a great success for both pupils and staff. Why not replicate that?

As a parent, my child has ASN (SPD and possibly ASD). It is my duty to make this N/P1 transition work for her. The SNSA, to me, seems pointless. It will not give the teacher any additional info about my child that she does not already know. It takes 40 minutes, per test, per child. The staff cost resource is huge...not to mention the millions that the SNSA cost to deliver.

You may ask why not do it? I ask why do it?

I started the thread to see if anyone else was planning to withdraw their child. If you are happy with the existing arrangements, I'm not sure why you want my opinion so much.

Because I'm interested! Nothing more than that. I don't get what you mean by high stakes. And I don't see how pulling your child out of this is going to have any bearing at all in how education is delivered. But I'm not in education so I have no idea really.

Thanks for explaining a bit more.

My DC are all past this now so haven't really looked into it. However, I do think there has to be something that takes a snapshot of where your child is and can track improvement (or lack thereof) the way things have been is that you have really no proper information on how your child is doing until they sit their prelims at high school. My DC started in the 5-14 system and at least you could see how they were doing relative to the expected stage (though it was a very broad parameter). When that was removed I knew what my child was doing, I knew about their behavior and I knew whether they were deemed to be making effort, but no clue whether they were at the stage expected academically etc.

However, I'm also all for people being able to make their own choices and not being over controlled from Holyrood, so if you have good reasons for withdrawing then I think you should be able to.

Specifically talking P1 there has always been baseline testing. It was called the PIP test when DD 17 and DD 15 sat it and was delivered in Q & A session with teacher - I did ask them if their pips had squeaked sufficiently but that was all any of us ever heard about it.

DD3 started 2 years ago and baseline assessment had changed to being introduced to her teacher in a 1-1 session playing on the i-pad.
Viewed as a big treat by DD3 and her classmates.

I am struggling to see what is so different with the new test to cause ruffled feathers. When I talk to P1 teachers their main headache is moving to non-phased starts for the P1 entry as it leaves less time for conducting the tests.

DD1 did the 5-14 tests and they were in no way pressured or high stakes. She just used to randomly have a bit of paper in the HW bag to say she had passed and moved on.

The 5-14 tests were dropped for DD2 to ease the teaching pressure while transitioning to CofE. There were definite holes in her learning because of transition and also because of a lack of any standardised curriculum or testing.

I am in favour of the new changes because of my experience with DD1 and 2, although I am very much against SAT type testing.

Our school nursery is already integrated with the P1-3 department of the school in the way you describe. However your focus seems to be downward from P1 - nursery whereas for the majority of the DC I know the issue is more Nursery - P1 and beyond.

A 40 minute test for 4/5 year olds! Isn't the very length of the test bad practice?

I gwt what you mean about high stakes. And pressure to be seen to be making progress. Trouble is, the things you can measure are such a tiny part of useful educational progress and things like the ability to listen carefully, be observant, notice details, notice patterns, not to mention enjoyment of language, numbers, patterns, imagination, textures etc; crucial for development are less tangible.

I teach a musical instrument, increasingly to younger and younger children. They enjoy their music making and because lessons are one to one with me their lessons are very child led. I plan lessons, but the plan often goes out of the window as the child responds to a particular aspect. I have no doubt that the activities we do, much wider ranging than the mechanics of the instrumental technique, benefit the children I work with in many different areas including emotional and cognitive development. But, if lessons start at age 7 + progress is so much faster. Most instrument teachers mostly won't take under sevens.

Obviously this is different from the three Rs, especially as fairly advanced co-ordination and motor skills and a bit of physical strength are required to play an instrument, so it's probably not too surprising that the little ones take longer. But classroom teaching isn't one to one so there is an equivalence.

Activities for little ones have to be meaningful for them if they are to learn from them. That's how connections are made and ideas are processed more deeply and therefore fully understood. And enjoyed. Enjoyment and confidence are so important to development.

I think I would probably withdraw my dc from these tests too OP. However, I would weigh that against how I thought the school would think of me as a parent. Presumably you 're very happy for parents to refuse consent for the new tests.