Moving from English to Scottish school system

[sofiesworld]

We are considering a move when ds will be in English Y8 (s2), but ds is a May birthday so I gather would be in S1 were he in the Scottish system.

My question is do kids effectively get moved down a year in this scenario or would they move in at the equivalent year, although that will then make them a little young for their year?

Ds is a very bright boy (in top few dc in his year academically based on in school testing and SATS) so a drop of a year may not be the best thing for him. Although clearly the Scottish curriculum will be different to the English one.

Any thoughts/experiences gratefully received! My other dc wouldn't be affected as they would stay in the same year group.

Scottish schools are often ‘easier-going’ and less test-oriented than English schools. This is not a bad thing!

Overall attainment is what matters and Scottish schools manage to produce smart well educated pupils without setting them ridiculous amounts of homework (which in primary years is pointless in terms of attainment anyway) or examining students every 5 minutes.
I say this as an English person btw.

Vetinari I've seen both systems and I'm not judging which is going in the right or wrong direction until I have seen any comparative attainment figures t hat come out over the next ten years.

Thanks Clarissa for your thoughts, it's useful to get different perspectives.

I am a bit worried he might not feel stretched particularly in maths as he is in the top set in a very academic school and still seems to be needing lots of extension work as he whizzes through. But I also totally get the point about being with the correct age peers, that is probably more important.

Trapped- i would be interested to hear any comments you have on how the 2 systems compare

Sofie - we have found maths to be a particular problem. Our Scottish school has no ability setting at all. DC found on moving into the Scottish system that they were as far as she could tell a couple of years behind the English system in maths. And your son will be going down a year, in the sense that he will be moving to a class where the other children will have been in the school system for 1 year less than him. So I suggest that you anticipate that he could well be 2 or 3 years ahead of them in maths. My DC is not given any significant extension work. It is very boring for her. She is doing some maths online at home, because otherwise I think that she would go off the subject completely.
Of course it will depend on the school you send him to, at least to some degree. But I suggest that you think about finding extension activities for him to do at home.

I can't really add more than what has been said by others. There have been a lot of changes over the last few years that came from a desire to make the education system work better for all pupils.

Now the Curriculum for Excellence as it's known is bedding down and has been in place for the entire schooling of current leavers.

The system of school allocation is a lot easier in Scotland and no SATS is probably a good thing overall. (Although I've heard positive stories where SATS didn't impact children.)

Thanks Clarissa that doesn't sound great for your daughter:-(.

Ds' current school is very good so it would be a big deal to move him tbh. The big picture would look a lot better for us all in Scotland but I am worried about schooling, particularly as dc1s high school is so good.

Thanks trapped.

Check out schools individually- I know in Stirling there is a school that regularly presents pupils early in Maths - differentiation is not just for less able pupils. A pupil in S4 sat AH and scored the highest in Scotland.

I don't know if you could go private, maybe? Some of the private schools follow the English curriculum.
I started off being very concerned about DC's education. I am still somewhat concerned, but I have found ways to live with it. I now see her as being partly home-educated. It has required a mind shift, and hard work and creativity. We have taken advantage of the relatively relaxed school system here - I have taken DC out of school for long term educational projects that I have sorted out for her. That would not have been possible in England, I don't think. She will end up in some ways better educated than her English friends, and probably more of an independent and confident learner. But if you really care about your DC's education, as you appear to, you may need to become more hands on, and not assume that you can leave it all to the school, with your DC being prepared to work outside of school (but he will have less homework than in England).
Good luck with your decision. Apart from the education side, there is a lot to like about living in Scotland.

I think most schools set for Maths, all the ones I've had dealings with do. There is for sure an element of trying to get those pupils who arrive at high school behind to catch up in the first two years but all pupils are tested on arrival at high school and most schools set for Maths based on those results. I obviously don't know about all areas.

There is plenty of challenging Maths a bit further up the school and Higher Maths is a popular subject.

I actually came back on this thread to say that I decided to check my facts, chose a Perth high school at random and low and behold they choose 7 subjects for S4 after all, oops, just shows that you shouldn't share hearsay and rumour!

Thanks for everyone's input it's all really helpful.

Clarissa- we would definitely stay in the state system. I like the sound of the Scottish system, I particularly don't like the pressure within the English system at primary level. (My other dc are primary age.)
I guess I just want the dc to achieve what they're capable of and be able to do whatever they want to do as a next step. And I don't want dc1 to be put off by being bored and feeling like it's all too easy. I can see it will probably take a mental shift to move out of the English way of looking at education and as you say he may need extra input at home.

I will have a closer look at the Perth schools and see what I can find out. Thanks for coming back wiggly, that's good to know.

Different schools teach differently. I think Clarissa has had a poor experience with her dcs' school

Ds' school sets in Maths and English from S1 (they may have changed recently to a later year to set for English for educational reasons). Friends whose children are at other schools are also set, both in Glasgow and elsewhere.

Good teachers will always stretch their pupils. Ds' maths class (top set) was consistently about 4 months if not more "ahead" of where they needed to be (eg started the Higher curriculum well before sitting their Nat 5s). One lad sat all his Maths exams a year early (so did his AH Maths in S5).

There are both pros & cons for the Curriculum for Excellence ( sofiesworld won't know what CfE stands for ). One of the pros is that it is supposed to be less about rote learning and more about how to apply the knowledge. In Maths & Physics that means IMHO, it is actually more difficult than when I did the subjects (many many moons ago). Despite getting As in both subjects at Higher, I struggled with "applied" Maths and "applied" Physics - so would really struggle with today's versions of the exams (notorious questions of crocodiles crossing a river with a current in Maths and nasty questions which actually involve probability). Ds is doing stuff on Plank's Constant for his AH Physics which goes way over my head. Ditto with his AH Maths.

Geography on the other hand does just seem to be rote learning - and ds' teacher advised him if he wanted to do Geography at Uni not to do the AH as he would then be bored in his first year at Uni.

If you look at UCAS tariff points (presumably a neutral, even actuarial, adjudicator ), an A at AH has the same number of points as an A A Level A B at AH is worth the same as an A at A Level. An A at Higher is worth 33 points - significantly more than AS Level which is also sat a year after GCSEs (I realise that AS Levels are being phased out / no longer encouraged) - and a point more than a C at A Level * So as most of the academic pupils will do 5 Highers in S5, that's a really good foundation for Uni applications .

Ds has chosen only to do 2 AHs and is crashing a Higher in Modern Studies alongside them - just as well

as he changed his mind over the summer about what he wants to do at Uni (from Maths/Physics to International Relations/Politics. He already has 2 Unconditionals (Aberdeen & Strathclyde) but is still waiting to hear from his preferred choice, Edinburgh. He is not unusual at his school.

So my experience of Scottish education (and that of my friends - including ones who've moved up from England) has been a positive one

Bold fail

Knew I should have written A (star) rather than A*

At least, it was a bold fail on the App. Looks ok on the laptop

Thanks prettybird that's really helpful.

One detail that was very different in my experience in Scotland v my bit of England at least was on admissions criteria.

It's possible to request an out of catchment placement and I knew parents who had succeeded with child 1. Then as a school became busier their child 2 couldn't get in as their was no sibling preference given. One woman I knew had a P1 and P3 at different schools. I've known quite a few cases of siblings at different schools just that was the trickiest due to the young ages.

Scottish schools are generally also local authority led in mentality, and often decisions are made at that level not individual school level. You are more likely to get referred back to "it's council policy." Full stop. Can be simpler sometimes but leads to less flexibility than you may have been used to.

Ok thanks. Am I right I'm thinking you are guaranteed places at catchment schools?

I'd speak to the council education department if I were you.

My experience of 2 councils a few years back was that firstly you need to have an address in council area to apply and be granted a school place. And applying outside the normal P1 entry they could accommodate my children within the council area but if the school year was full at the catchment school then I'd have to put the child on in-catchment waiting list. You would have priority over those waiting for an out of catchment placing.

Don't know if this is Scotland wide but our secondaries have feeder primaries. The local Catholic primary is not a feeder to our nearest (non denominational) High School but to the Catholic High School. You aren't guaranteed to progress to a place there unless you are in one of the Catholic primaries.

To confuse the matter further you may get an out of catchment placing request granted to a primary of your choice but there are no guarantees going up to its associated secondary if you are not in its catchment: you have to request again and there may not be a space , DESPITE coming from a feeder primary.

Trappedinspace is correct and makes a good point: you are only guaranteed a place at the (defined) catchment school if you enrol/are enrolled (in the case of transfer from a feeder primary) at the "correct" time (which will vary from council to council.

Thereafter, you are guaranteed a place if there is spare capacity and if not, at the closest school at which there is capacity.

There's not normally an issue at secondary schools as they are large enough and there is enough churn with people moving homes for a space/spaces to open up, coupled with the fact that there is not really a tradition of waiting lists and moving schools if/when you get to the top of the list.

If you look at the school handbooks of the schools you are interested in, you can have an idea of how close they are to capacity. Although even that is not definitive as it will also be a function of year groups and in some cases (particularly secondary), it may be that if they breach a threshold, they can recruit another teacher(s), and so increase their virtual capacity.

As well as checking with the local authority, it's also worth ringing the school if there is one that particularly takes his fancy and talking to them.

Ds' now school was very helpful when we were checking out the placing request process. Gave us a tour (in fact two: second one with ds and a couple of his class mates who were also putting in placing requests) and generally lovely

....and come to think of it, my neighbour suffered from that when she moved here: our excellent - but also therefore popular - (catchment) primary school was full in the year group she needed for her elder daughter, and didn't want the place at the other local (closer ) primary school (98% English as an Additional Language - in contrast to the exemplar-of-good-practice 60% EAL at the catchment school ), so ended up choosing the local private school.

I went to school in Perth (many years ago). Perth Grammar has the best reputation now - it’s not a grammar, it’s just called that! Otherwise, I have heard good things about Crieff High. Perth people aren’t generally fussed about where your accent is from but I would warn you they are a bit insular and not terribly welcoming. Most people have lived there forever!

I'm from Perth OP, and through work know a fair bit about schools

I've also had DC at 3 of them.

You will almost certainly be guaranteed a place at your catchment school. A large part of Perth outskirts is joint catchment between Perth High and Perth Academy. Perth city is also catchment for St John's Academy

We're also getting a brand new secondary (the first in Scotland for decades) to serve the growing population of Perth

Also, English accents are commonplace. I don't think he would be singled out for that

I would certainly agree that Scottish schools are more laid back. However, in my opinion, this is definitely a plus!

I also wouldn’t get too worried about levels - at the end of the day everyone’s going to be doing National 5 Maths In S4 and higher in S5 (if they choose to do maths that is!) whatever level they’re doing in S1 or S2. There’s no point getting ahead of yourself. I don’t see the point in doing a higher or AH in S4, as an other poster had mentioned. Unis really are not going to care!

Re English accents: My 5 yr old DS sounds like Billy Bragg and is well liked at both his Gaelic medium school and the youth club on our "rough" estate.