Being taught out of year: experiences?

[Arkadia]

To make a long story short, my DD2 next year will find herself to have to be taught out of year. She will be in P2 but she will have P3+ stuff in all subjects.
As skipping a year is frowned upon (and it not might be a long term solution) this is the situation we are at the moment.
At the beginning of next year a personalised plan will be agreed and in theory everything is going to be hunky-dory, but in practice how will it work? Has anyone got first hand experience they might want to share? I can already see the teachers trying to avoid that class like the plague...

I can only quote what I have been told (as mentioned more than once).
Besides, as she is in effect repeating P2 I don't see what the alternative is, besides working pretty much on your own...
While reading and writing are not really an issue, English and maths most certainly are.
For example, DD2 is currently working for reading and vocabulary enlargement with another girl (P2) and they are well ahead of the rest of the class. Next year this girl will be in P3, while my DD2 will be in P2 so it is unlikely that the arrangement can continue. So while before they would be going to do their own thing when reading time came, next year she will be doing the same thing alone.

As an aside, I am surprised that more than once it has been suggested that children that are ahead will be expected to help those who are behind. OK, it could happen on occasions for whatever reason, but on a regular basis I find the whole idea absolutely ghastly. Perhaps when they are older (P6-7) they can come and help out at the junior classes, but not now.

School is about more than learning to read and write, they learn to work together, take on leadership roles, deal with friendship, resillience
issues etc. All skills that need to use as an adult. At no point did I suggest that she becomes a TA though...supporting peers with their learning will improve her already good understanding and help her to develop the skills described above.

Children can achieve 5 higher at an A grade in one sitting without learning with the class above . A teacher should be able to manage her time to teach each pupil appropriately within the class. If she has individual teaching she may have an IEP?

If your school is not differentiating then you need to get in there and ask why. As mentioned above this is what you need to do.

Please, enough of "resilience". I start hating that word ;)
What is an IEP?
Anyway, I suppose we shall see what happens next year. I was hoping someone had a similar experience...

It is a pity to hate the word that means that children become independent and can deal with situations on their own.

IEP = Individualised Educational Programme.

I am sure your daughter will do fantastically in any class she is in, I really wouldn't be concerned.

Oh, I see. Yes, the HT did say she would get a personalized plan next year (hence the working on her own).

The problem with "resilience" is that it has become such a jaded buzz word and to me it encompasses the fluff that pervades the curriculum. It is all very well to be "resilient", but not if you just keep waving it like a magic wand :D

It does sound like she will have an IEP so that is good. The HT is acknowledging she is bright and working at a higher level so I am sure it will all work out fine.

Good luck

it is a pity it has become a buzz word because it is so important for children to be able to deal with social situations, especially if things start to go wrong for them with friendship fall out etc.

Ok, but how does it work with such a plan from a practical point of view (which is my original question)? Being "individual" it goes without saying that it will be "individual" work.

I was always way ahead of my class all the way through primary - i was also one of the youngest in the year. I didn't skip a year I just did slightly modified work and tbh I needed to be with my peers for social reasons and the like.

Some kids in p2 will be doing the same level of work as kids in p4+ and some will be doing the same level of work as some in p1. It's all a sliding scale and I think you shouldn't get too worked up about it. Does your Dd enjoy all the arts and crafts and research and gym etc they do?

My daughter did different maths sheets to the rest of her class at about that age. Writing didn't make much difference, if they were writing an essay she would do it to her level, reading didn't matter she was free reading. Topics she did with everyone else, they just work to their own level. She did do maths with the year above sometimes and the top table did some special projects with a TA and she enjoyed those.

She loathed the literacy hour with a passion as she thought it was boring. To be honest she would have been better going up a year as she got on better with the year above, I think the thing about being with their own age group is a bit of a red herring, her birthday was in December so some kids in the year above were closer to her in age than some in her year.

On a practical level my daughter would be doing the same topic in maths but harder work so say they were doing fractions she would be too but just harder questions. She wasn't sitting alone, she sat with the rest of the top table.

Being "individual" it goes without saying that it will be "individual" work.

Not at all. As I said upthread - the teacher sets a whole class task to write a story about an animal. She will be expecting different standards from each child. A less able child will be asked to use capital letters and full stops. An average ability child might be asked to concentrate on spelling. A more able child will be asked to use adjectives, adverbs, paragraphs, apostrophes, more complex grammar. But they're all still writing a story about an animal. In our school the teacher uses stickers in hte children's books to remind them what their targets are.

In reading - there are about five different groups in my child's class over a wide range of abilities. When it's "literacy time" each group has activities to complete or worksheets and the groups take it in turns to read with the classroom helper or the teacher. So you've got a class of 25 doing 4 or 5 different things, some groups are 12 kids, others are 1 or 2 kids. But the whole class is doing reading.

You can extend that concept over every curriculur area. Especially with topic work, if the P1/2 class has (for example) learned about The Jacobeans this year, that topic is not going to be repeated in P2 for the children who have already done it.

I did come across this (unfortunately) with my ds1. He was in a composite class in p4/5, top set for maths, and then in the small group of the top set who then went and did maths with the p6's, next year as an actual p5 that arrangement ended. I don't think he covered anything new in maths until p7. At least in your case the school is aware your dd is working ahead and will try to work with that.

My Dd and her friend used to have reading with the year above. They used to go to the class at a prearranged time.

Last year when I was doing a 1 to 1 another child used to come and join us from a class above as he'd come from a country where formal school starts later. Our class used to offer to go and get him.

Ds was "upclassed " in year 4 (p3??) so he was in a year 5/6 class. It wasn't great tbh and I think year 4 was really a lost year for him. IME for bright dcs sooner or later they run out of the primary curriculum ( this has now happened to both of mine, despite differentiation). They will both be going in to year 6 a reliable NC level 5/6.

Thanks for the replies ;)
Still can you please rephrase your contribution? I am not following it at all ;)

still - surely if they run out of primary curriculum they look at secondary school concepts? Although that is what we would do in Scotland so not sure if that would be the case in England.

English year 4 is roughly equivalent to Scottish p5 if that helps. NC in this context is national curriculum and I think the levels refer to SATs levels. (And a level 5 or 6 would be well above average for a primary age child).

I can understand your concerns but in my experience (where a single teacher school may have a couple of P1s, a P4 & a P7) pupils can be doing the same subject e.g. Maths or topic e.g. Egyptians and work at totally different levels. It is a lot of work for the class teacher and I would wish to ensure the teacher had adequate class support to enable such wide differentiation.

Been in a similar situation with DS.
The school should differentiate but it can depend on the teacher imo how effective this is. My experience is that there is help available for those that require additional needs but if your problem is a very very very bright child you struggle to get support even though they have additional needs too. (This is not intended to be goady, it is my personal experience). I don't begrudge any child having extra support. I agree with many who say it is important to stay in the year group from a social perspective as certainly in our situation our very academic son was lousy at social skills, art and music so it gave him time to learn these extremely valuable skills too amongst his peers. Academics isn't everything. However, it is vitally important that an academic child is not left to coast, become bored, disruptive or disengaged. I can only suggest you build a strong relationship with the school, a partnership so that you can all work together with your child to see you through this year.

Thanks mothers :)
How did it end up in your case? The HT is making all the right noises, but I do wonder whether she is just making a token gesture or not. Time will tell.
As you said, a lot will depend on the teacher. AFAIK in the P1-3 classes there is very little differentiation and I am not sure whether this is because they don't do it or what. Again... time will tell.
For now my DD2 has a number of friends (all in the year above, though :( ) and she is well integrated, so next year she will have to start again, but I suppose it cannot be helped at this juncture.

when I said about building a relationship I can't stress how important this is. We (my husband and I) had many meetings with the headteacher and also the class teacher to discuss what work he was going to be doing, what level he was working on (old system prior to CfE) and how we could help and support him at home too. He was given what seemed like an inexhaustible amount of maths homework as his appetite was insatiable which his teacher then worked on with him in class. The downside was he was miles ahead of his peers by the end of P2, spent all of P3 doing maths on his own but once in P4 the time tabling of maths allowed him to be taken out of class to be taught with the P7. This brought its own set of problems with his handwriting being immature for the level he was working on, P7 being a bit resentful of have to pair up with a P4 and his social immaturity. Academically for him it was wonderful though as he had competition and others to share and bounce ideas off. The relationship with the school was crucial though.

Thanks mother, and what about SS? If you are pre-CfE I would imagine your DS is out of school by now ;)

He finishes this year :-)
Had similar problems with DD, however she was more English, arts inclined, maths good but not remarkable. 6 years between them and the difference was stark under CfE.
She was reading and writing WELL above average (although not that uncommon on Mumsnet, lol) but the policy had changed so that she couldn't be taken out of class to work with an older group so it all had to be class based. Again lots of meetings with headteacher and class teacher to discuss the best way forward. Lots of reading and comprehension extension work was given which we backed up at home to keep her interested. Her P1 teacher was great, was on board, had taught DS previously so knew us well and really pushed our DD. Next teacher it was a constant battle to keep getting extension work, very little feedback and as no testing under CfE we had no idea what sort of level she was at, only our own thoughts. And so it went on... one year a great teacher who differentiated, next year not so much! We had a great relationship with the Headteacher throughout and she did address issues as they arose but she felt more constrained by CfE. (rolled her eyes on more than one occasion). As I have said, so much is down to the teacher your child gets.