Slightly cringey question about foreign [EU] accents in Scotland

[Dutchwithflowers]

I am from the Netherlands originally. Although I have lived in England for over 15 years I have not been able to, and probably will never, loose my native accent.

Dp and I are considering a move to Scotland, probably Glasgow, Edinburgh or St Andrews. People here in England have made comments about my accent in the past and I must say I am getting a bit self-conscious about it.

My question is how easy is it to adapt to local accents in the places I have listed, at least to a degree, and how tolerant are the Scots in general about foreign accents. I speak very fluently it's just that you can detect I am one of those from the EU and therefore not terribly popular here at the moment.

I appreciate it is a bit of a silly question but any thoughts would be much appreciated.

"I'd say you'd be much more welcome if you speak with an EU accent up here than if you have an English one" smile sounds great!

surely the point is everyone should be welcome no matter what their accent.

I can only speak for Glasgow but people are generally very friendly, and it's a really diverse place. As a PP said, expect people to ask where you're from and take an interest. And probably tell you about their auntie's friend who once met someone from there, or something. If you're new to the City it's a good way to get to know people!

I know a lot of people from elsewhere in the EU who have picked up bits of Glasgow accents. I think it's such a strong accent you can't really help it!

PigletWasPoohsFriend anyone should be welcome anywhere. Let's not pretend England welcomes everyone with open arms eh.

Let's not pretend England welcomes everyone with open arms eh.

Who says they do?

However to claim that Scotland is some type of eutopia where everyone is always welcome, is also a false claim.

"surely the point is everyone should be welcome no matter what their accent." Of course!

But after feeling rather unpopular in England where my accent gives me away as one of the foreign Eu workers, who Tory leaders want to get rid of even at the cost of the economy and well-being of all people living in England / the UK.... it would feel nice to feel able to speak without being judged negatively. To me it sounds lovely that I don't need to be ashamed of my accent when I speak.

It sounds liberating. Of course no country or region is utopian but some are more open and welcoming to strangers than others.

ayeokthen We have the racist, homophobic nonsense up here but sectarianism is unheard of.

PigletWasPoohsFriend nobody said it was, but the cities and town that OP was talking about ARE welcoming, they are very diverse places with many different nationalities rubbing along together quite happily. Your posts have been quite goady, so I was responding in kind. OP has had negative experiences in her time in England and was hoping to find somewhere in Scotland where it wouldn't happen.

Danyella I wish it was unheard of here too! It's the only thing I hate about where I live. "Which football team do you support?" is a massively loaded question, as is "What school did you go to?" (RC or non-denominational). It depresses me beyond belief.

Dutch c'moan up, yous'll be made right welcome

Also, I have a German colleague, been here two years and recently a visiting American customer asked where in Scotland she's from. I definitely think your types of accent lend themselves well to our dialects.

fluffy

I went to school abroad and we were doing some work on 'Platt Deutsch'. Turns out my pronunciation is great due to my Scots accent!

Hirples
So, (wild generalisation alert) while Scotland's history with Europe has been a happy trading one for thousands of years, England's history is one of Empire, competition and war. Maybe the ways things are currently has to do with that?

I apologise but I am going to question your wide generalisation! I am at a loss as to what you mean by English history to be one of Empire as I presume you are primarily focusing on the British Empire. Scotland was not a quiet bystander in that less than wonderful chapter in this islands history. Scotland was fully involved in (and benefited from) our expansion across the globe. In fact considering the lower population in comparison to England at the time it has begin argued that Scotlands involvement was proportional larger compared to England. From my uni courses I have a vague recollection this was something to do with inheritance which forced second+ sons to make their own way in the world but I might be wrong here.

Glasgow was called the second city of the Empire with good reason. It is a city that heavily profited from the tobacco and sugar trade in the American colonies. Which means it grew up from the proceeds of slavery and death, just like many other cities in Britain.

Look at the history as to why the 'Merchant City' area is called that. It isn't because harking back to some old style twee shops.

Two enterprising young Scots William Jardine and James Matheson also set off to make their fortune oversees - specifically China. They bought Opium into the country and it isn't unfair to argue that they were the founding members of the the Opium Wars.

Sorry, I realise I realise I went off at a tangent there. I just couldn't quite let that point slide before going to bed. My main point above wasn't that Scotland was any worse than England just both countries ,as they are today, have strong foundations in imperialism.

I've always wanted to study just how much Scotland has actually benefited from the widespread assumption that Britain = England. Scotland tends to be seen by the outside world as being fully apart from the negative history of Empire which is associated with the word Britain. People tend to mean the 'English Empire' rather than British so that Scotland has in some ways manage to dodge its own darker history from those times. So Scotland can be thought of fondly as a country of bagpipe playing, kilt wearing charming people who stand apart from what their stuck up, arrogant southern neighbours got up to over the last couple of centuries.

This is starting to change but I don't think it has been addressed well in Scottish education to date. Slavery and the evils of empire are still firmly seen as an English problem with Scotland managing to stand back from the whole dirty business.

Anyway after that random segue back to OP - any area should be fine. Whichever country you are in (Scotland/England/Outer Mongolia) you will meet plenty of nice people but there will always be some twats. I've dealt with idiots in Scotland and England. Just be the nice person you seem to be from this thread and approach the move positively and I'm sure you'll be fine.

To respond briefly to the derail, yes, I'm aware of all that. Scots were in the frontline of Empire militarily and administratively, and thoroughly in cahoots with the slave trade. But there's long been a conflation of "English" and "British" in the minds of many, even today, which is rarely addressed by the English (and if challenged by a Scot gets derided as chippiness) so, y'know, if that helps Scotland's PR, it's quid pro quo.

I'd need to check out further but dh's comment re the Scottish/English roles in the British Empire was the Scots tended to the educators and engineers whereas the English tended to the officers and ruling civil servants. Massive generalisation but I can see where he is coming from.

Back on topic, I'm in Glasgow and know Dutch, Italian, Russian, French, Icelandic and Georgian (and English ) people via ds' rugby club (although the Dutch family has just gone back to the Netherlands - but were very happy here) and at work. No issues with accents.

As others have said, the main thing you'd have to be aware of is the Scottish chattiness (particularly on the West Coast). Even at a bus stop, people will strike up a conversation. And don't ask for directions unless you're prepared for people to "be going roughly that way anyway so I'll just show you the way"

I recognise that we have still have a vile undercurrent of sectarianism . I'm fortunate that I've never had any direct negative contact but I still get the creeps when I come across an Orange Walk during marching season . Dh (brought up RC but very much lapsed) had to teach me that there were still people/places where it "matters" which religion you are . I'd like to think it doesn't matter any more, but I'm probably being naive.

There are apparently 54 languages spoken at ds' secondary. It prides itself on its inclusiveness.

Thanks Hirples. I just couldn't quite let go of the implication of English history = Empire which in this context gave the impression that Scotland was not involved. And I will give you the quid pro quo on the Britain/England point. One of my US friends studied history at uni in Scotland with me and at the end of the year I discovered that she genuinely thought that England/Britain. She genuinely didn't realise that standing in my home in Scotland she was actually in Britain! I wouldn't mind too much but we were studying history of the British Isles indepth by that stage.

One legacy of the involvement of Scottish settlers in colonial America is that many African Americans have Scottish surnames. Their ancestors got those names from the people who owned them.

prettybird
The idea that Scots = educators and engineers (i.e. the nice bit) and English = ruling officers/civil servants (i.e. the bad bit) is not what has appeared in recent research though I don't know if your DH is involved in studying this area. Tom Devine wrote a very good book on the subject which finds Scots over-represented at all levels/areas of the empire and ,at the upper levels of the Indian military, disproportionately so.

From a national level there is no way to get away from the fact that England and Scotland were fully involved and greatly profited from the empire and its expansion.

Although at a personal level I would presume that most of us
were probably less likely to be setting off on a boat to India than to be rounding up sheep in the snow and huddling in a croft over winter or down a mine in Wales. Happy days!

The last time dh studied it directly would have been over 30 years ago and even then it would have been from a geographical, land use perspective .....hence why I caveated my comment

Very wise and strategic use of the caveat! Being such a high brow lot you can never be sure on Mumsnet if you are conversing with someone who will suddenly claim to be the leading expert in that area.

Right, I promise I'll bugger off this thread now as looking back up it appears I have continued to completely derail from the OPs original point. Sorry chaps, as you were.

Tom Devine is a fantastic historian, writer, and orator. Absolutely Scots were involved in Empire, and profited therefrom, and no, it's not taught enough in Scottish schools. But then, I was only taught the positives of Empire/Union - I went to school when maps still had massive pink areas.

Tom Devine supports Scottish independence. So do I.

And, OP, I hope that if you move up here, and if you have a vote (EU citizens did last time round), that you'll vote for our independence too.

But, y'know, if you don't, that's OK too.

Lots of encouragement and historical lessons to boot!

I'll look up Tom Divine.

There is a book called "Watching the English: the hidden rules of English behaviour". Is there anything similar about the 'Scottish way of life'? I hope you can forgive my total generalising, I don't normally think or talk in clichés.

I think the whole Empire thing is glossed over entirely to be honest. No one seems to like talking about it. I think we need to talk about the bad bits of our history as well as the good.

When I first moved to England from Scotland I had an argument with someone in my class about whether England meant the same as Britain. A teacher intervened and agreed with my classmate. I was absolutely devastated and cried because I knew I was right but my teacher told me I was wrong.

Another thing that I find funny is people's inability to understand that I'm still not English, and I don't want to be English, even though I've lived here a long time and I love London. When I point out that if I lived in Spain I wouldn't become Spanish, they always say 'but that's different'.