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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Original poster

19 Edinburgh schools close.

93 replies

HirplesWithHaggis · 08/04/2016 19:48

www.scotsman.com/news/education/safety-fears-to-shut-19-edinburgh-schools-1-4095097

My dc aren't in school (or, indeed, Edinburgh) any more, but this is dreadful. 19 schools, all built under PPPI, will not reopen on Monday due to safety fears.

I wonder if this means compensation is due from the builders to the council? Where are all these dc to go? With exams looming too!

OP posts:
cdtaylornats · 09/04/2016 21:24

It sounds like a lot of schools were built to the same design and there was a flaw. Its no different from recalling millions of cars.

doodlejump1980 · 09/04/2016 21:38

This needs to be higher up in the news. It's a scandal considering how much was spent building these schools. FIVE of the schools to be closed are secondary schools and the exams start in three weeks!! I'm a teacher in a different council, and all the schools I work in are new schools but not by Miller thankfully. The mind boggles at the possibilities of how the council are going to fulfil their educational responsibilities - particularly for the sqa pupils and those pupils who need their highers etc for university etc. What's the comeback here? This is only going to snowball methinks Confused

StatisticallyChallenged · 09/04/2016 22:48

The thing is that when your car is recalled, you have options:
-if it's very dangerous the recall is normally very quick, and you have options for carrying on normal life - hire a car, use a bus, etc.

  • if it's non urgent you schedule it to go in and get fixed at a time to suit - often with a courtesy car provided

Plus, the volume of people impacted is proportionally smaller. There's 17 closures - 10 primaries, 5 secondaries and 2 schools for those with ASN. That's a little over 1/5th of secondary schools and and about 1/9th of primary schools. It would be unusual to get a car recall knocking out that proportion of cars on the road. But it looks like we put all our eggs in one basket and build a crapload of schools with the same basic design so when one went wrong, they all did.

But the bigger problem is that there are very, very few options for those who are impacted by this. There is (unsurprisingly) no childcare for school age children during term time - a few people will manage to do emergency nannies, childminders, call in favours from friends etc. but realistically, how long for? Most people will not be able to get childcare because there simply are no workarounds unless the council comes up with one. I haven't seen any indication so far of how long this is expected to last.

PacificDogwod · 09/04/2016 22:52

What on earth?! Shock

I wonder how far those waves will reach?
All 4 of my DSs are in PPPI built schools Hmm (not in Edinburgh but that's small comfort just now).

StatisticallyChallenged · 10/04/2016 00:04

According to this article it seems to have been a mix of Amey and Miller who were involved in the design and build, and Amey do the facilities management.

According to their (Amey's) website, they manage 10 primaries, 5 secondaries and 2 special schools (i.e. all the closed ones) covering a total of 15,000 pupils in Edinburgh.

this report has an appendix at the back (appendix B) which gives details of 6 large PFI contracts which were entered into around the same time and were used as case studies. Page 14 also gives a list of all of the first generation PFI deals for anyone who is interested.

As far as I can tell, Miller and Amey were also both involved in Glasgow and Fife PPP schools. It also looks like at least Miller were involved in Inverclyde - chances are most of the schools built in those regions around 2000ish will have been part of the PPI.

I think they've already been inspecting these schools but they'd been onsite at Oxgangs for weeks, had apparently thought on Thursday it was fine to open and then discovered something on Friday -linky to letter to council which says:

"shortly before noon today we were advised by the design and build contractor...they had discovered further serious defects as a result of which it has advised that these schools are no longer safe to occupy"

and goes on to confirm they'd given assurance on the 5th that they were safe.

Groovee · 10/04/2016 07:47

I know pupils were in the one of the high schools on Friday doing extra revision classes.

Oxgangs had been diverting all the pupils to different schools. They cannot do this with all the closed schools. The priority is S4-6 for next week as there are the practical exams which many pupils had for dance, drama and hospitality. Not sure if they will be asked to go to other schools to use their facilities.

I would be happy to keep my S2 child home if they needed the space for the pupils doing exams. But I know others wouldn't.

trixymalixy · 10/04/2016 09:53

I wonder why there aren't more details of what the serious defects are? How did the buildings get through planning permission and building control? Serious questions need to be asked.

TheTroubleWithAngels · 10/04/2016 16:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
HirplesWithHaggis · 10/04/2016 17:02

Anyone got Nick Knowles' number?

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 10/04/2016 17:19

I don't think they can Angels - their wording in their FAQs says:

"At this stage it is too early to say. Further investigations are continuing to take place and we will update parents as soon as possible next week. At this stage we would recommend that parents make alternative childcare arrangements for next week but, if we are able to put alternative arrangements in place that will allow children to go back to school earlier, we will let parents know.

Which is woolly. I suspect intentionally so people will think "a week" and then they can turn round and say "nope, not next week, we never said it would only be a week"

HazyMazy · 10/04/2016 17:27

Why do people without the knowledge get to make the decisions.

With all this stuff - Scottish Parliament, Trams now schools an experienced engineer should have been around to flag up problems instead we seem to have people with management skills running things.

Groovee · 10/04/2016 21:07

My friend had an update saying it's likely to be Tuesday before she knows how things are going with the decisions.

Original poster
HirplesWithHaggis · 10/04/2016 21:32

Edinburgh University has offered teaching space. Apparently other organisations are also offering help.

OP posts:
Scotlandorbust · 10/04/2016 22:11

I wonder will staff be allowed in to the schools involved to collect textbooks, coursework etc? They won't get much teaching done from memory I would imagine. (Thinking of the senior ones here)

trixymalixy · 10/04/2016 22:15

I read somewhere that staff haven't even been allowed into the schools to get contact details for parents to let them know the schools are shut! Sounds pretty serious. Thankfully no one has been hurt.

Original poster
HirplesWithHaggis · 10/04/2016 22:21

According to tomorrow's National "Top Architect warns Edinburgh schools could have to be knocked down and rebuilt", which sounds pretty serious. But I haven't read the story yet. (Obviously!)

OP posts:
Cindy34 · 11/04/2016 06:42

R4 is reporting it is due to wall ties, whatever those are. Presumably it is is steel frame construction with the walls between the frames which are meant to be linked to the steel but those links have been found to be missing.

Groovee · 11/04/2016 06:58

Very worrying. Some of the school's only had extensions built so it could be the extensions are closed off while the rest of the buildings remain open.

mummytime · 11/04/2016 07:16

As someone in England - those of you in Edinburgh (and anywhere else that could be affected have my sympathy). Could we publicise this a bit more widely - as it seems to be a huge worry for PPI in general, if so many schools could be affected.

Groovee · 11/04/2016 07:36

You have to wonder how many school Or buildings UK wide are affected.

My childrens school is a later phase built school but now worrying about their safety.

wonkylegs · 11/04/2016 07:41

For the construction firm to admit there are problems means that the nature of those problems is serious as PFI/PPP contracts are notorious for limiting liability for issues. Miller construction is a seperate part of the company from Miller Homes and was sold to Galliford Try a few years back. I suspect there is some choice language in the boardroom about that acquisition at the moment.

trixymalixy · 11/04/2016 07:42

Mummytime, unless the same contractor was used I think you have little to worry about. The method of finance has nothing to do with the building construction.

mummytime · 11/04/2016 07:50

But surely there should be checks? In England if you build something it has to be inspected by Building Regs. So why weren't these mistakes picked up? Was it a fundamental design fault? etc. etc.
There are lots of questions to concern everyone.

meditrina · 11/04/2016 07:52

I've just seen this on the (main, not regional) BBC news.

It said that urgent checks have been ordered of the buildings of schools across Scotland BBC article here

Yes, it seems these PPI contracts were badly let, badly drawn up or badly monitored (or a combination of all three). But it does seem to be an issue in Scotland (totally separate jurisdiction to other parts of UK, and totally under control of the government/local authorities there). All the schools known to be affected so far were built over 10 years ago

trixymalixy · 11/04/2016 08:01

There absolutely are very serious questions to be asked about how the schools made it through building inspection, whether it was the design or the construction that is at fault. It is very concerning, but hopefully limited to this one phase of school building.

I heard on the news it is the internal walls that the problem has been discovered with.