Just need a bit of hand holding I think, no affairs, abuse, tantrums, just, fallen out of love.

[propmeupplease]

Should be easy right? We're on good speaking terms, making arrangements for when he moves out, kids don't know anything yet, we've not argued or anything, he is getting the blunt end of it, he says he still loves me, I actually think he will one day wake up and smell the roses and realise that convenience and habit isn't love, but I am taking his kids away from him, and I can't stand that.

But it's not good enough to stay, is it?

If I am calling time on 'us', and it's me that simply does not love him anymore in that way, then why is it so damn hard?

I imagine it's so hard because you've a shared history and have had children together. I think it's brilliant that you are able to be civil to each other. I must confess taht sometimes I look at DH and wonder if I would be happy/ier without him. I think we are too complacent about each other.
Good luck and congratulations on the cordiality of your seperation.

Tentatively - because only you know what's going on in your life, and it may be impossible to salvage - have you tried making time to do stuff, just the two of you? I don't even mean romance, really, but friendship and remembering what you liked so much that you fell for him. I think having kids is a passion killer and marriages go in phases. If you like him, and he is a good friend, a good companion and a good father and you aren't actively repulsed, then I do think that it might be good enough to stay when you have kids, even just long enough to reignite a spark.

Please don't think I am dismissing your feelings. For all I know you are certain that you have tried this and it's hopeless. Or he could be a useless husband, if a nice guy. Or he could be lovely but the marriage is stifling you so much you're getting really depressed, and need out for your own survival. I understand that you know where you are, and I don't. It's also not at all the case that I recommend staying if things have soured so much they've become toxic.

But... I've been where you are. We didn't split up. Several years later, I am so relieved about it. I don't think you are always "in love" and over 60 years I think it a reasonable expectation. I'm just saying that all relationships burn down to the embers at some points, and when you are both focused on the kids, that's a likely time. So you've fallen out of love but he is a keeper in every other respect, it may be worth seeing if you can't spend childfree time together and remember why you loved him so much you married the guy.

I don't know, I am starting to doubt myself, if I didn't love him, then it wouldn't hurt so much, but then I accept I still care about him, and how he is feeling, so just by that alone of course I'm going to feel badly for him.

And I am scared, 27 years old, 3 children, one failed marriage, and a divorce heading my way, makes for a bad storyline doesn't it?!

I have no one up here, all friends/family are where we used to live, 200 miles away, and he want's us to keep it to ourselves until we've got final plans made (hence the name change) but I can't do this on my own, I need someone/where to act as a sounding board.

We have no child free time, never have, can count the number of times we have been child free on one hand.

We have no friends, like I said they are all 200 miles away, we've met no one except the next door neighbour since we moved here.

He is very very hard working (12+ hours days mon-fri, most Saturday mornings and one or two weekends on call a month), he can't drop these hours because we need the money coming in.

He has been somewhat controlling, I was very young when we got married (17) he is older, I suppose along the years we slipped into him being the 'grown up', we had a big falling out last year about it all, I had grown up and realised that I was actually my own person as well as a mum and a wife, we decided to do some big changes, and try again on an even keel, we tried, and now I guess we've failed.

Confuzled speaks sense.

The hard part is working out where you are -in a down phase of your marriage or whether you have irrevocably fallen out of love.

Lots of people go through real terrible down phases - especially when you are focused on small children. Then they start to get a bit older, you get more time to yourself again and can get more loved up again.

Is it you that has fallen out of love? If youre very upset it sounds to me that there is something there. There is a Relate book that has helped some people on here called I love you but Im not in love with you -could that help?

No, I don't think I am in love with him, not the way it should be, how it was.

In some ways (and I really don't mean to offend anyone who has been there, but...) it would be easier if he had have had an affair, or something else as serious, I don't mean so that I could load the blame of our seperation on him, just that it would tie off so many questions in my head.

Am I a bad mum for not putting the kids first and just existing alongside him? We don't live, we have no lives, together, apart, too little time/money/love?

I don't want to get into my 50's, kids grown up and long gone, and then wonder what the hell happened to my life.

God, that sounds so hard. But yeah, what you are describing now sounds more problematic, in that an adult marrying a 17 year old is likely to struggle when they grow up in my opinion. People change so much between 15 and 30. Frankly if I were you I'd find it very hard to separate out the fear of adult life without him from whether I still loved him. But you ARE only 27, and that is a couple of years below the average age people marry for the first time. I was 4 years older than you are now when I married. You have your whole life ahead of you.

I also find it really dsturbing that he is effectively forbidding you from discussing this with anyone when you are at such a vulnerable and painful point in your life. Can I ask how much older than you he is, and how you met him?

If he works those sorts of hours then tbh you aren't really taking his kids away, are you? If he has them every other weekend and cares for them full time in that time then he is having more to do with them, I imagine, than he will when you are doing the bulk of it at weekends - no? Is he a medic or on oil rigs or something, if he is on call? Those are crazy hours, and I speak as someone whose DH leaves the house at 7 and gets back at 11 on weekdays.

I think you need the support of your friends and above all, particularly if you are close, your family, which means you need to tell them what's happening rather than being scarily isolated. Is he maybe not your parents' favourite person, and is there maybe a way in which he will resent some I Told You Sos?

Finally, please tell me you have sought independent legal advice on a settlement, and aren't doing it yourselves or with a shared solicitor.

"Am I a bad mum for not putting the kids first and just existing alongside him? We don't live, we have no lives, together, apart, too little time/money/love?"

That isn't putting your kids first IMO. That's teaching them to be scared of life. Powering on through a bad patch is one thing, living a half life quite another.

I send a hug. Bugger Mumsnet traditions, you sound like you could do with one.

Sorry, have to go, he's home, will be back tomorrow. Thank so far.

Sorry to rush off last night, just couldn't face the "I thought we were keeping it ourselves" lecture.

To answer the questions:

I don't think this is a 'bad patch', though I do appreciate what you are saying. I think the top and bottom of it is that I have grown up, and I want, no need, to be something else other than a mother and a wife.

We are struggling financially at the moment (not so much bills, just money for 'extras'), I dared to say that I need to get a p/t evening job, and straight away he battled it down. I am not qualified for anything (though I am studying at the moment) so would only be looking at shop/bar/etc. work, min. wage etc. but if I could have got something say 4 evenings in the week for 4/5 hours and possibly some at the weekend, I could have been earning £300/£400 a month, not a lot, but would take some pressure off. But he just will not let me go, he seems to think that if a man so much as looked at me that I am going to run off with him, or if I got a friend they might intrude on his life. Would add at this point that I have NEVER given him any reason not to trust me, ever, and he admits this.

Re. the relate book, thanks for the recommendation, but I think it's just too late. When we had the big blow up last year over his controlling ways, everything was supposed to change, inc. relocating to a new area/school/house, we've done the move, and life could have been very sweet here, but he hasn't changed a thing. He's not being so outright with his behavior, but I still think very carefully before I say anything, anything, from one of the kids needs a new something or other, to I NEED A LIFE, and that isn't right is it? That isn't how an adult should have to be.

Confuzled, yes you are right about the fear of being without him, I am devastated for him because I am taking his kids away (I will be taking them back down south) he says he is going to come so he can see them as often as he likes (which I have no problem with whatsoever), but I think I am more upset because I just don't know if/how I'm going to cope on my own, and the last thing I want to do is find myself in the situation where he will still be controlling me, even though we're not together, and it would be as much my fault as his because I could still be dependant on him. I want to be indepent, I want to say what I want without having to put up with lectures as to why it has to be this way or that way. But I'm not sure I'm strong enough, or even if I'm aware a lot of the time of what he does to me. We'll start talking, I'll say my bit, feel good about myself for speaking up, and then at the end of the conversation, while still congratulating myself on being more assertive, it sinks in that actually, we've come to the conclusion that it's all his way anyway. I am not stupid or thick (or maybe I am?!), it just happens along the course of the discussion.

I am agreeing to keep it to ourselves (and MN!) for now because we are going down south to see my mum weekend after next, there is a festival going on and the kids are really looking forward to it, if it all comes out beforehand, it's going to be a bit uncomfortable for everyone at mum's.

Oh and FWIW, yes when we got married we had problems with my mum, but it is very much over with, we've been back on good terms for 9 years now, and I wouldn't say she adores him, but she has said many times how well he looks after us all, how hard he works etc. All of it true, he is a good guy, just has some ishoos I suppose.

We haven't done anything on the legal side of things yet, so far we're on good terms and he is saying that every spare penny he has will come to boys etc. I get the car, we are renting at the moment so no house to divide up (sold our house last year, not sure now whether that was the right thing to do!), I've no problem with him seeing/having the kids as often as possible, but obviously we do need to get it all sorted properly, but I think we need to get a plan together first of just how I am going to get back down south. With no spare money etc. it's not going to be easy.

Sorry I know this is really long, just wanted to answer some of the points that were made. And a lot of it is waffle but I have no where else to let it out.

Okay. Well, it sounds to me like you are doing the only thing you can. He sounds like a fundamentally nice guy, but (forgive me) not one who would easily find a woman of his own age who would tolerate that level of control. It is not okay that he tries to decide who you talk to and what you talk about, far less whether or not you work. He's not your father. If he can't change, and he hasn't, and you can't say what you think/want because of how he reacts, then that's no way to live, no.

It is scary, change always is. But you are young and can build a fantastic new life for yourself and the kids - studying is a really positive way forwards, too.

As a single parent you'll get tax credits etc and help on how to find work. Don't worry too much about that - it's a pain, but very sortable. And it's great that you are both being so child-focused and communicating so well about their needs. You'll be co-parenting for such a long time.

I think maybe you may want to look into getting some Cognitive Behaviourial Therapy. It can be really useful in giving you control over your life and how you respond to other people, and that could be just the ticket for you. It isn't "tell me about your childhood" stuff, it's "let's determine the best strategy for avoiding self destructive thought pattern habits". That might help things seem less frightening, maybe?

Mumsnet can be a really good resource for venting, and in a new place, with small kids and not "allowed" to work or discuss this with other people (ouch at that verb in a grown woman) you must feel quite isolated. In all honesty a big bit of advice I would have is to ignore his "I thought we were keeping it to ourselves" thing. He can keep it to himself. That's absolutely his right and decision. Whether or not you do is yours. I think, personally, I would want support from family, especially as they may well want to help you move home and enable you to build a new life. I don't want to be like your husband and tell you what you should do, but if the only reasons not to tell are pride and because he has dictated that, IMO those are insufficient reasons. Apart from anything else they'll know soon enough anyway.

If you sold the house last year, where did the equity go? As a marital asset and if you are primary carer of the kids then that should be shared, also a pension if he has one.

Sorry, I missed that you're waiting because of a festival - that does make sense.

Thank you Confuzled, for your advice, and for giving me somewhere to get it off my chest.

The equity is long gone, wasn't very much at all.

He has come up with the idea of us all going down south so we'd have my family's support, and for me to go out to work while he stays at home with the boys. Thing is we are barely managing now and he is on a good wage for up here, but down south = more expensive for everything and I'd be working F/T for peanuts.

I have spelt out to him that I longer want to be married to someone who isn't willing to let me be who I am, and yet he still carries on, going on and on about how he will change and how he will let me be my own person, and pointing out that in his last long term relationship his partner went to work and had friends and went on nights out with them and he didn't have a problem with it. I can't get him to understand that I have no interest in his past, more his future and since it all came to a head last year, he was made 100% aware that I was not willing to carry on like it, and yet here we are 14 months later still the same.

I am so angry with him, angry that he just cannot stop himself, even at the cost of our marriage. If I thought for one minute that he would change, then I wouldn't be leaving, mainly because although at the moment I don't feel I love him, I do think that if he wasn't the way he is, the anger would fade and I know I would fall for him again, he is a great guy, a fantastic dad, looks after all of us the best he can, I can't knock him for any of it, and believe it or not I took our vows very seriously, and I have stood by them 100%, but I can't stand by them and watch my life drain away in someone elses hand's, for the sake of a few words we muttered 10 years ago.

Sorry am waffling, I can't even say all of this to him because I am that angry, I would just cry, or worse shout it at him, and then possibly risk upsetting the relative smooth way we are handling the situation, and I don't want us to end on bad terms, for the kids sake.

Why can't he understand that I have been so unhappy for so long with our relationship, and there have been so many "one last chances", that I can't do it anymore. I just can't.

I think he sounds very controlling and it all seems to be about him and what he wants. I'm not sure he's taken on board that you are leaving him at all and perhaps the not letting you talk about it to anyone is another way of making it not be true and still controlling you.

I'm not sure you will be able to part on completely smooth terms - I think when it comes to the crunch (as I really don't think he's believing you yet) and when you stop following his rules he will be very unhappy about it.

"I'm not sure you will be able to part on completely smooth terms - I think when it comes to the crunch (as I really don't think he's believing you yet) and when you stop following his rules he will be very unhappy about it. "

I couldn't agree more.

"He has come up with the idea of us all going down south so we'd have my family's support, and for me to go out to work while he stays at home with the boys. Thing is we are barely managing now and he is on a good wage for up here, but down south = more expensive for everything and I'd be working F/T for peanuts."

It would also mean that he could then threaten that if you left, he would retain residence of your kids as primary carer. It may be pure coincidence, but given the absolute lack of any other advantages plus the 180 degree u-turn from his previous feelings about you working, I have to wonder.

Bluntly, I think you need to start working out the practicalities and stop worrying about what he thinks, now. I truly don't tell people to leave at the drop of a hat - well, my first reply shows that - but this does not sound like it can go anywhere good. I'd talk to your Mum and ask her to keep it to herself. You may be surprised by her reaction - she may not be as reconciled to him as you think, but rather prepared to accept your choices so you stay in her life and family. Please, talk to your mother and ask her to keep it to herself until after this festival is over. I really do think you need IRL support from someone with your best interests very much at heart.

Can I ask again how you met him, and how much older than you he is?

Thanks both

I am feeling good today, 'D'H and I have just had a long conversation, I have once again spelt it out to him as clearly as I can that I do not want to be in this marriage any more, and that's it, it is finished.

I am making small plans (sorting out a seperate bank account, sorting out what benefits I will be entitled to until hopefully I can either get a job, and/or carry on my studies) the major probelm I am having is the logistics of actually getting down south. The town we'll be moving to is fairly big, nice parts and very rough parts, I want to try and rent privately rather than having to accept a council house in the rough part of town, but that means I have to find the deposit, moving costs (we have a BIG house here, and it's full of stuff, no idea how I'm going to get it all down there) H has decided even if he has to give up his job etc. etc. that he is deffo moving down to be there for the boys (and I've no doubt, for me as well, will see where that get's him!) so no job, and being tied into a rental agreement here until November, plus of course I've got schools to sort out (can't do because of not knowing where we'll be living) and then there is uniforms etc. etc.

To be honest, I don't know where to start for the best, just another sign of how pathetic I am was.

I have just spoke to my one and only friend (from where we used to live) I have told her, and am very proud of myself, I didn't get upset, stated the facts (she knew most of it anyway) and have basically jollied myself up into a proper girl power attitude (albeit 15 years too late!!)

I am better than having to lead a half life with a man that can, or will, not let me be me.

Isn't going to be easy getting there, but I will.

Confuzled, sorry, I meant to answer that before, he is 13 years older than me, and very we met on the internet, not a dating site or anything, just in the old Freeserve cafe chat room. Despite the age gap and the now percieved 'perviness' of the situation, it wasn't like that, and I am certain he didn't 'seek me out' to control me forever or anything like that, he isn't nasty as such in his controlling, it is more that he, I suppose father's me, and I let it happen because I knew no different.

I suppose lot's of people told me from the start, the more people said the more determined I was that it wouldn't be like that, but it did happen, am not ashamed to admit I am wrong, and I don't regret it, we've got 3 great kids that I wouldn't be without for a single thing, but it is now the time to put a stop to it, and the only way to do that is for us to be apart.

I am very upset, for the kids, for him, I am literally blowing our family apart, but I am not upset for me, I am angry with us both for letting it carry on for so long, but mostly, I am nervously looking forward to it. When I first said that's it, I've had enough, we're finished, I was really worried how I'd cope, stupid little things: what is a bee get's in the house? (I am petrified, have been known to lock up the house and not go back till he came home to get rid of it) I can't cook, well I can do basic things but wouldn't know where to start with real food, I have been cocooned in this pathetic little existence for years, and I can't wait to get out of it and learn to how to be a fully fledged adult.

OK sorry, have gone again, am going to shush now, just wanted to get it down so that when I wobble, which I've no doubt I will, I can come back and read it all and find the right way again.