confused

[Mulberry]

I not sure why I'm writing this really,possibly just to get this off my chest.The heart of the problem is that PIL are having a lot of financial problems which means at the moment that the only way to solve things is for them to sell their house and move somewhere smaller,possibly renting,unfortunetley this has taken them several months to get their heads round (I know that this is difficult)and they have dragged their feet to the point where dh and I feel that they have missed the best time of year to sell etc,they have spent a lot of this time following useless leads about ways to stay there,anyway the upshot is that after much discussion DH and I have agreed to remortgage our house and lend them the money to pay off the debts so that they can stay in the house until the spring and get the best possible price and have got themseves emotionally sorted out.

The thing is that although we decided this together,and I am really fond of them and want to help them,I feel really really angry suddenly,I just can't help feeling that we are putting our childrens future at risk for something which is not our responsibility.I feel soo guilty for feeling like this,we can afford the extra money,although obviously it is not ideal and I did agree with dh that we would do this and they are very supportive PIL and grandparents but it just feels like a step too far and I cannot help feeling that it will change the dynamics of our relationship forever.Today I found myself feeling resentful because they could not babysit I felt they owed us and I don't like that feeling.Dh and I are hardly talking because I feel guilty for feeling like this and he feels guilty because he feels it's his family causing the problems!

Some of the difficulties are due to business but they are also due to just bad money management and sticking their heads in the sand,they do rely on DH a lot for support in all sorts of ways and I know his mum was relying on him to solve the problem for her and of course he has,I also know that in the spring they will still be desparate to stay where they are and we will probably end up comming to another arangement.

I think part of the problem is that I feel I have just seem the future and that we will be supporting them in some way or other for the next 30 years ( they are only 60 )and that is a frightening prospect,it's not so much the money as the reponsibilty.

I hate myself for being so self pitying but I just want to cry all the time .

I changed my name to post below because I don't waant this to colour my other postings but people always seem to get such good advice here on coping and putting things into perspective.I feel even more guilty now because yesterday I was feeling so down and dh is away and I confided some of the story to a friend ,who I trust,and who will not gossip but I still feel that I have betrayed dh and pil.Oh Dear!

I don't blame you for feeling upset. I think that you are doing a very generous thing for your parents in law. I don't want to sound alarm bells, but you did mention that they are not good at money management and that they stick their heads in the sand. I hope it isn't out of order to ask, do they realise that it is a loan and not a gift? I think that if you can reassure youself that this is the case they this will seem like a temporary thing and not the start of 30 years of support.

I hope that you start to feel better about it soon

Mulberry - what a pickle this is. First I must say that I think you have made an extremely generous offer, but the main thing is that you need to decide whether YOU are happy with it (which tbh it doesn't sound like it at the moment).

You need to assess the following:-

1. Whether you are prepared to not see the full amount of your money repaid
2. Whether you can cope with future disappointments from your PIL (eg in-laws). Eg You feel like the 'owe you' - but how long do you expect this to go on for - for the term of the loan, afterwards ?
3. Whether your PIL will expect the same kind of offer in the future.

You need to be 100% sure of your decision. Any less, IMHO would cause problems. It shouldn't cause a problem definately within your relationship with your DH certainly.

If you do change your mind, expect your PIL to be disappointed (presumebly you have already made this offer to them). But at the end of the day this is an extremely important decision that you have to be sure with, or you will just resent your dh and PIL. When it comes to money - it is extremely tricky. I find it can put a sour note into any kind of relationship - so I would think about this VERY CAREFULLY.

Good luck Mulberry and let us know how it goes.

I don't think it's very wise to do something as drastic as remortgaging your house. Your capital is so incredibly important for your future and the additional interest rates will really rack up. Anyway, by Spring prices could have fallen further instead of risen - what then? If they can't (or won't sell then, doo you honestly think they will ever pay you back? As you say they aren't good at that sort of thing. To me, the great thing is that at the moment they are - at last - OK with the idea of selling, which I would think would be a good reason to get things moving now. Why not instead help them to really market their house now - ie pay for some redecorating if necessary, help tidy the garden (or get someone in), organise estate agents valuations etc etc so that they don't have to do anything. At least once the house is valued and on the market things will be moving and they can really look at what they can afford in the way of property in the future - a two bed flat should be affordable with the proceeds, surely? You can then help out as and when without feeling the need to put your own biggest investment - your home - at risk. I mean suppose your dh lost his job or something? Obviously you will have to talk this through sensitively with your dh but surely he won't want to make you unhappy when there is a more practical solution at the moment. I would honestly prefer to help with their debt repayments temporarily while the house is on the market rather than remortgage. Have they seen a debt counsellor and got their creditors to accept lower payments yet? I do really, really feel for you and admit I would feel just the same. My dh pays his mum's mortgage and council tax etc, but she has willed the house to him. Maybe something like that might be a better solution - ie you buy them a flat outright with your remortgage and they pay you a subsidised rent to take account of their circumstances but the flat remains yours as an investment for your children's future after they die? That way they will have capital to live on and won't need to make future demands on you hopefully.

that's really good advice, aloha. good luck, mulberry.

Don't do it, Girl!

Sorry, Mulberry. I truly believe your PILs are adults and need to sort out their own financial affairs. Especially when they have a substantial asset to help them out of their debts (in form of their house). Plus...

What happens if house prices go down, and your PILs can't get the price next spring that they could get today? I know that most commentators are not predicting a crash, but some economists are forecasting a crash. Few predicted the 1989-1995 fall off in house prices. British house prices have never been known to dramatically rise and then just quietly plateau at the high levels before; big rises are followed by big falls. A house price crash is not at all inconceivable.

Plus, What happens if PILs decide to not sell their house after all?

I have lost friends before when they borrowed money and couldn't pay it back. How sour would your relationship with PIL become if they couldn't pay you back?

Could you at least formalise the loan in writing, so that you & your DH have a formal claim on their estate if they die?

Also agreed that Aloha's advice cannot be bettered, mulberry. Your PILs are lucky to have a DIL who cares for them enough to even contemplate such a drastic move but at the end of the day they could be doing more to get themselves out of this awful mess. Very best of luck to you and you are not at all self-pitying!

Aloha is spot on. Better to help them out in making the house more attractive to buyers. Paint the rooms in neutral colours, sort out any obvious viable problems, use your garage to store some of their furnature if the place looks a little crowded etc. And if you loan them the money make sure you have some sort of written agreement over the cash. Cash and family (IMHO) rarely mix well.

Thank you to everyone for their suppport,the fact is that FIL is subject to an IVA (indiv volontary arragement)his creditors will get an agreed amount when the house is sold.If we can lend them this money and the creditors agree to full and final settlement then they can get on with their lives and sell the house in their own time.It should have been sold by Sept (not looking very likely now)and even with this hanging over their heads they have not yet got it on the market,there is always something to do first like paint the windows or tidy up the driveway!

They are genuinely good people who adore the children and think the sun shines out of dh and they would be horrified to know that I am feeling like this but if I decide to pull us out I will have to watch them going through more misery and causing yet more stress for DH knowing that I could have stopped it.

We will have a proper loan agreement and dh is taking a second charge on the house but all that is meaaningless really because we wouldn't see them homeless.In January I know they will try to find a way not to move again and I have said to DH that I would only do this if we owned part of the property but everything just gets more complex,perhaps we will buy them somewhere in childrens names or something I don't know,but the fact is that the whole stuation feels like our problem and at the root it is not,but then again with no pension other than the state,no job,no life insurance etc it will be our problem and that is what is so frighteneing.

mulberry,
You've had some good advice on here. I'll just add a couple more thoughts -
Why don't you put the house on the market at the same time? Make it a condition of providing this loan that they will put the house on the market now. There is an article in "bricks and mortar" section of the times today that says that buyers haven't gone away for the summer this year as normal - and I know a few people who are buying and selling over the summer. If it doesn't sell, fine, but it may. And I don't particularly believe in doing up a house in order to sell it - see if it sells as it is, and if not take it off the market and tidy it up in Jan Feb and try again in spring. But lots of people like to buy something they can do themselves. And by tying the loan to putting it on the market it is sending a very clear message to your PILs that they HAVE to sell this asset in order to clear their debts. Better than them living in false hope that they have some sort of reprieve in the spring when everything will miraculously sort themselves out.

My second point is to ensure in the loan agreement that you and your dh have the right to require a sale of the house. You don't want to be in the position where it is clear to everyone except your PIL that they need to sell, and the only way you will get your money back is if they sell. So you have to have the ability to force it. Not nice but completely crucial. I'm sure you've been advised this anyway.

As for the rest of it - feeling they are beholden to you and you have responsibility for them - really difficult for you. All you can do is be very honest with your DH about how you feel, keep talking about it with him, and make sure he agrees that if the risks involved in doing this look like getting higher (eg the property market starts crashing) he is going to have to make decisions in your and your family's interests over your PILs (eg quick sale).

best of luck, I think you are admirable to do this.

Mulberry, since the PILS haven't shown any financial responsibility before or willingness to sell their house they're not particularly likely to in 6 months time either are they? PPH's advice sounds good but please make sure the creditors HAVE accepted the payment in full and final settlement - you really don't want to find that actually, they have a charge on the house too, the value has gone down and you don't get anything in the event of a sale. This is all assuming you go ahead of course. Zebra's right too, there could be a huge crash...also agree you should talk to DH and that they're lucky to have you as a DIL. I think I probably would help out my ILS in a similar situation but I'd just make sure first that in a worst case scenario I wasn't likely to lose my house too.

Mulberry, I agree with aloha, zebra, www, oh and everyone else I would agree with you that co-owning the house would at least give your family security. I know it's harsh but it really is their problem especially if it has been coming for a while you must protect your interests. Many people say don't lend friend family money and I think there' is a lot in that. By the way haven't ever taken my own advice - smiles

Not much to add by way of advice but have been in a very similar situation but with my own parents. Short version is essentially my dad embezzled a large amount of money over 8-10 years from our church (he was the treasurer) to pay for who knows what but it did include a long-term prostitute. It came to light when he became depressed and his business went under (2 complicated stories intertwine - the embezzlement started several years before he started his own business but increased when the business floundered a bit). He was made bankrupt and their house was repossessed. Trying to get either parent to do anything was a nightmare (talk about head in the sand attitudes); dad stole more money (from me, my brother and my grandmother) and bought a new car... My brother and I thought about many solutions including how to help them out financially (and we did with little things like keeping up with bills etc) but felt that ultimately our primary financial responsibilities were to our own families as we both have young chldren. We persuaded and bullied and cajoled them into all sorts of appointments; phoned lots of people e.g. to find out about council houses, housing associations. Did lots of practical things but didn't want them to just have an easy way out e.g. give them lots of cash. It sounds harsh but I think the tough love, cruel to be kind approach was necessary for our sanity, for our families and for them. Mum now feels much more informed and in control of her situation (for the first time since she got married 30 years ago - dad did everything to do with finance and she was absolutely clueless). Helping her to become independent and see the difference is great. Dad is still a s**t at times, I still haven't really forgiven him esp as he will not tell us where the money went and will not apologise for what he has done but he is a good grandfather and I need to balance competing interests. It's hard but maybe just giving them the money isn't the answer in the long term.

Thanks everyone for your support etc.We are going to go ahead but if the house doesn't sell in spring will take part share,lukily although prices elsewhere seem to be levelling here still seems pretty buoyant,even in the nineties it never fell by much,lots of retirees!At least dh and I have talked it all through again and I feel better for that.

Harrysmum,reading your post made me realise how lucky I am that our situation isn't more complex,I hope that things continue to work out etc,but as I said in earlier posts the frightening thing is the way constant support is always needed to keep things under control,it has made me more determined than ever taht I will never put may boys in a similar situation.