Trying to overhaul my mental health and want couples counselling but DP refusing, any advice?

[Surama]

I have some MH issues. I have avoided seeking help for them, ever, so have no diagnosis but I have problems with anxiety, major mood swings, get angry very quickly etc. I have children and don't want them to have a childhood like the one I did (which seems to be the root of my issues), so went to see my GP, who said I would benefit from therapy rather than medication and has referred me for counselling.

However I want to have couples therapy with my partner. There are aspects of our relationship which are unhealthy, learned behaviours I feel we need to change if we're going to be happy and healthy together longterm and have a positive environment for our children.

We've been together a long time and many of these 'problems' grew up from him dealing with my issues the best way he could (and protecting himself from them, too). I want to get myself better and purge all this nastiness from our home. My partner can be dismissive towards me and my feelings (because I overreact and "am ridiculous" so there is no point listening to me) and quite vengeful/spiteful - I suspect it's how he vents his frustration with the often abysmal way I have treated him and the sudden rages I am still prone to.

I raised the subject with him and he was very, very negative about it. He says there is nothing wrong with him and we can't afford it and he "doesn't want to be involved". After considerable arguing he conceded and said I should "sort myself out first" and then he will consider it. From my point of view, I want to have a supportive atmosphere as I undergo therapy and I want him to understand why I am the way I am and how I am tackling it. He is quite dismissive of therapy anyway (though so was I, for years, as a defense mechanism). In fact, very negative opinions of people with MH issues is something we had in common when we first met - I was in denial, while he had a difficult relationship with a horrible person who also happened to have MH issues and excuse all their bad behaviour by referencing them constantly.

So I do understand that he's not keen, but I think it would be so valuable. There are already a lot of old wounds, resentments etc and I am tired of being told I am irrational or overreacting or "always do this". I'm also tired of poor DP being my emotional punchbag. There is so much which is wonderful about our relationship and I just want us to be the happiest we can be.

In an ideal world I would undertake my own counselling and then, demonstrating dramatically improved behaviour and thought processes, persuade him to come along for couples counselling having proved its worth through my own changes. But I suspect it's unlikely that my (NHS), counselling will be a smooth or definitive process and I also suspect that going through it may make me more rather than less difficult to live with.

Does anyone have any suggestions? He won't come and talk to my GP with me, he "doesn't want to be involved".

I wept pretty much all the way through my 1st 2 appointments Surama!

But then i guess it was the only time I can think of recently where Ive just been able to let it go, let the feelings out without being criticised, or criticising myself too.

The handful of words I did say were hugely significant!

And of course being vulnerable with someone like that builds the trust I guess. My therapist is the only other person that understands how I feel. It is a precious space.

Hey that sounds positive - find your inner bitch a little bit! Be a bit cocky. Your DP will probably be a little shocked but its got to be better than tears. You really have kind of given him the role of 'arbiter of standards and behaviour' so maybe he is just playing that out. Maybe he will be relieved that he doesn't have to cast the opinions anymore.

Isnt it funny how we find ourselves with people so different to ourselves!? I was having this conversation with my DP the other night because he is always terrified by my 'recreational crying'. You know when you just go and have a sob in your room for no reason! He has never seen his parents argue or his mother or aunties or sister cry! We we raised so different and are emotionally so different and yet we hold so many values and opinions the same.

I firmly believe that when you can come to an understanding between equals the differences make it stronger. My old boss used to say its like the A-Team. They were all a bit strange and flawed individually; Mr T wouldn't get on an aeroplane, Murdoch was ummm... mad, Faceman...sex addict? etc. however put them together and they made up for each others shortcomings and were able to use their strengths. For instance, your insight and analysis combined with DP's ability to put his head down and power through problems has the potential make you far stronger than if you were 2 analysts or 2 blinkers-on types.

We are now officially lost in Essayland....

Powerful stuff, 1foot - I hope that it's as helpful for me as it clearly has been for you.

RudeEnglish, it is totally bizarre. My DP can be really inconsiderate - not selfish per se but he'd put his own wants before that of a total stranger and feels no guilt about anything ever. He also seems physically unable to hold a grudge and and has a memory like a seive. and he always thinks the best of everyone, gives them the benefit of the doubt, etc. I am exactly the opposite on every point, and always convinced I am being constantly judged and found lacking. Which is exhausting.

I like the concept of an A-team approach! We're not quite at the synthesis stage - the more I think over things DP says when we argue the more I think he doesn't actually listen to me once I have started "being unreasonable" - and I KNOW he dismisses my feelings if he thinks they are "not justified", which drives me mad. But it's something positive to work towards and more constructive than feeling like the sky is falling because he doesn't think I am the rat's pyjamas.

Though now I am thinking about him disregarding my feelings if he thinks they're not rational and getting all worked up again. I should make notes to take along when I get my counselling appointment. NOTES, not an essay ;)

"he always thinks the best of everyone, gives them the benefit of the doubt" - but as far as i can see, he doesnt think the best of you? why so?

anyway, NHS counseeleing yes 6 to 8 sessions but the counsellor can help refer you on for more, sugggest diff services which might suit you better etc...

as you embark on this journey it may change totally how you feel and the dynamics of the relationship - at some point you can revisit with H the idea of joint counselling...but as others said, focus on you first...

Surama, I think your partner is causing a lot of your issues.

You said it must be annoying for him to have you desperate for his approval. But he KEEPS you desperate for his approval deliberately. He even said so: "I don't want you to stop trying" as a justification for constantly criticising you! He's keeping you off balance, isn't he, because even when you're feeling really good he unleashes a litany of criticism.
He dismisses your feelings and tells you you're being unreasonable, unjustified, irrational, "mental".
Does he bring up his ex-girlfriend a lot, when he's telling you he doesn't "want you to be mental". There's an implied threat there, isn't there? If you don't act the way he thinks is correct, you'll be just like her and he won't love you.
You've described him as "vengeful and spiteful".
He never feels any guilt about anything and always puts his own needs forward.

I think personal counselling is a brilliant idea. I think you're with an emotional abuser, frankly. And I note that all your posts, every one of them, is about how he sees you - and yet, why would you want the good opinion of someone who is vengeful, spiteful, selfish, critical, dismissive of your feelings and actively blocking your attempts to become a better and stronger person?

tortoise, thanks for your post. I am ashamed to say that if either of us has been the emotionally abusive one over the years it has been me.

I think there's an aspect of him trying to 'toughen me up' with his comments, which is obviously misguided at best.

He doesn't bring up his ex at all, it's always me who does. She's still on the periphery of my life (we have aquaintances in common) - for example it was mentioned through the grapevine that she's now having ECT. I related that to DP and he said "that'll make her happy, she's been pushing for it for 15 years". When we have discussions about his attitude to my MH issues I usually bring up the ex (in a "do you think you feel that way because of X" way), and he says maybe.

It's linked to the stop trying comment. When we met he was with his ex and she and I had a lot in common. We never left the house, we lived off our boyfriends, we'd just dropped out of uni. We'd even both been in the same private MH facility though she as an inpatient. We both self-harmed, we were both self-obsessed pretentious idiots. She HATED me and apparently slagged me off to now-DP a lot, which set up an opposition in his mind I think.

I got pregnant with DS1 and turned my life around - left my ex, got my own place, went back to uni. Had a good year or so of being a single parent, studying, working to make ends meet, basically being involved in the world. DP says seeing me do that gave him the courage to leave his ex - it made him realise that she was the way she was because she wanted to be. So when he said he didn't want me to stop trying he meant he didn't want me to go back to how I was before.

Bad timing though I know.

I have a huge long post I wrote last night about the conversation we had when he got in so I am going to do that now but I wanted to respond to you.

I think DP is unwilling/unable to believe I am in the process of change, and I want him to be on board with it.

We had a talk when he got home about what we want from our relationship long-term. I instigated it but he was open to discussion.

Some things which hadn't been made explicit before were; he is angry with me because he thinks the division of responsibilities at home is unfair; he thinks I don't do enough, he is resentful that he deals with the kids in the mornings and is often the main caregiver at weekends. He says it is not normal.

I told him that in my house when I was a child, my father took over the childcare 100% once he got home from work (mum vanished upstairs and reappeared at bedtime to say goodnight), and at weekends (mum had a 'lie in' on saturdays and dad took us out of the house for most of sundays - he cooked both dinners on those days too). I'd never really thought about it before, not explicitly, but as I was describing it I realised that must've had an effect on what I see as normal (whereas DP compares with what his male colleagues who have SAHMs at home report).

He is very angry for how I was when DS2 and DS3 were very small. He agreed to try and react to what is happening now rather than what it reminds him from in the past.

We talked a bit about his criticism. He flat out denied that he never or rarely praises me but couldn't think of an example of when he had. When I brought up the things I described before he was quite dismissive.

I had a mini breakthrough myself when I found myself saying "how do I know you love me, when you tell me how annoying I am all the time and only compliment me when you want to have sex with me". He couldn't see what I meant but I think somewhere in the back of my mind I don't believe he loves me unless he tells me so (I tell him and the DCs I love them all the time - assuming they feel the same way maybe).

It felt good to be listened too. Though he was a bit tipsy so who knows if it'll make a difference. It felt good from my side too though, and I get to keep that no matter what.

One thing that disturbed me a lot though was when I asked him why he is getting so much angrier towards the DCs lately (DS1 in particular). He said "I learnt it from you, I never used to be violent before I met you, it's your fault". In a sort of jokey way. I pushed and said did that mean when he shouted at DS1 it was my responsibility, and he said no, it was his, but it was because of me that he did it.

We talked about it a bit more and he was clearly uncomfortable with it - so of course me being me I kept asking questions about it. My unreasonable anger directed at DS1 is the thing I am the most ashamed of in my whole life (although it is under control a lot more now I was very bad when DS1 was little, which is one of the reasons I didn't want more DCs), and I have worked really hard on it - explaining that I am upset/frustrated rather than flying off the handle, explaining why I reacted the way I did, apologising etc and of course the aim is to not to do it anymore but I want DS1 to be involved in the process and understand that it's about me and not about him. I don't know what DP is going to do.

He does need to do something though because the DCs are NOT going to have parents who shout at them. Or a parent.

I think we both have issues. I don't think DP is ever going to agree with me without making it all my fault.

But, Saruma, I'm not telling you that you're perfect. I AM telling you that his treatment of you is unacceptable (as you know, thus the desire for couples counselling) and it feeds into your issues. Look at my list in the other post. You said all of those things. Can you see that it is untenable to live with someone who acts like that towards you and yet refuses to acknowledge that anything is their fault?

Telling you that it is your fault that he is angrier (violent? is he violent towards them?) towards the children is totally out of line.
Blaming his critical, vengeful, spiteful nature on the fact that you don't do enough childcare? Come on, that's ridiculous. If I think my husband isn't pulling his weight I call him on it, I don't launch into him with a list of his failings and spiteful insults.
And as for toughening you up. He's not a drill sergeant, you're not a project, and he needs to stop that right the fuck now. You don't toughen up your loved ones, you support and nurture them.

I have to agree Tortoise and it is so heartening to see Surama that you say

"He does need to do something though because the DCs are NOT going to have parents who shout at them. Or a parent"

Only you can take responsibilities for how you treat the DCs, and he can take responsibility for his actions.

I am wondering whether there is some projection going on here, certainly this aspect you talk of is most worrying but I'm so pleased you can see this comment for exactly what it is.

He is feeling attacked so it is your fault.

There is something very "superior" about him calling you a "mental" and blaming aspects of life on your condition when you cant be responsible. He is not a ventriloquists' dummy for heavens sake. I hope in time you can unpick this as it sounds most worrying.

Love from 1foot x

tortoise, I do agree with you. I suppose I was trying to say that the criticisms aren't constant - I do FEEL constantly criticised but that's by the world, not by him. But it is a pattern that when I go to him to validate my pride OR for positive feedback it's almost always "yes but". Things to work on from both angles there.

I agree his treatment of me isn't acceptable, and it's not a contest to see who is "worst" - if there was it would be me though. He has put up with some awful things, things if a man had done to a woman then MN would be telling her to leave and never go back.

I want the way he behaves towards me to change in line with the changes I am encating in myself and the way I interact with the world. I think he will have to do that or our relationship will be on shaky ground. But he doesn't see the profound shift I feel - he wants it to be demonstrated maybe?

Worst case scenario is that he cannot imagine that I am other than I was.

DP is not violent to the children but I am a violent person - I used to throw things, scream and shout, fly into rages. He's not that bad but he does yell at the DCs and seems quick to anger - and he used to be so laidback.

I think he's holding a grudge. It sounds like every time he's up with the little DCs he's remembering every time he was left to deal with screaming babies alone (and that did happen a lot). Every time I can't sleep and pass out at 4am and am dead to the world at 10am he is remembering when I never left the house, or all the times he had to leave work and get DS1 from school because I refused to go outside. He wasn't angry with me then, he was tender and caring. Perhaps now I am stronger he feels he can be angry?

I see him with my mother (who is very bad at the moment, going through a psychotic episode), and remember how he was with his ex, and I suspect he knows how to deal with a totally irrational 'insane' person who has little connection to reality. Growing up he was the man of the house and his mother was very neglectful, so a nurturing role is something he is used to. But that isn't a dynamic which suits a healthy relationship between two ADULT partners and co-parents and I think we need to work on how we are in that context. I want him to respect me as an equal, not be all "sometimes you aren't worth listening to".

I have tried saying "yes that did happen and I behaved badly and I am sorry for that, how can I make things better going forwards?", and he always says "I want things to be more equal" - which they ARE, but what he really wants is for things to HAVE BEEN more equal. I know from my work on myself that living in the past and going over past frustrations is really damaging, it's something I am looking to overcome in myself.

I think he also needs to accept that things with us aren't the way things seem to be with his colleagues with SAHMs at home. He does get caught up on us not being 'normal', like it needs to be one or the other.

1foot yes I think unpicking is needed. I hope he will come to see that whatever has happened in the past, we BOTH need to change to make a happier future.

It does sound really unhealthy when I type it out, it's a function of such a one-sided and specific load of text I suppose. He's been an amazing partner or we wouldn't be together, and his support has gotten me to a place where I can tackle my MH issues and change things for the better. But I want everything to change, not just me, and he does need to take responsibility for his part in it.

But yes I will focus on myself first. He surprised me last night by how ameanable he was to frank discussion. Measured conversation which doesn't descend into recriminations (his, but I am getting good at pulling us back on course), seems to be the way to go.