Cheating worse than beating?

[Anniegetyourgun]

Following on from the thread which talks about cheating but turns out to be a very disturbing incidence of DV (and a similar one recently), I wanted to explore why infidelity might seem worse than other kinds of abuse. I've given it a new title because I didn't want to start a philosophical discussion on the actual thread.

It's hard for most of us to understand how an abused woman can accept verbal abuse, hitting, isolation, financial deprivation and all the rest. Everyone would draw their own boundary in a different place and "know" what we personally would not put up with, but it's surprisingly easy to find yourself in a situation that on paper you'd never stand for five minutes. It depends how you've been conditioned, how subtly the abuse started, all sorts of factors; and once you're in, a cunning abuser has all sorts of techniques to keep you there, accepting it as normal, not realising there is a way out or even that there should be. Horribly, some can even end up accepting a certain level of abuse towards the children. If it's what happened to you when you were a kid, it's not always obvious that it's wrong.

But then the abused partner finds out he has been with another woman. This, for some reason, is the last straw - the ultimate betrayal of their relationship. It's the deal breaker, when strangling her or slapping the baby or making a child eat his dinner off the floor were just regrettable. That's a massive distortion of values, surely? How does it happen?

There's unlikely to be just one explanation. Here's one for the kick-off: that however badly a man treats his partner, she can still convince herself he loves her "in his own way". There are times of intimacy, whether having (often abusive!) sex, watching telly together, even having an argument, it's just the two of them together. He's got his little ways, sure, but he's her man, she's the one who knows his vulnerable side, the one he can "be himself" with, and all that... I hesitate to say bullshit, but it is really, isn't it? But when there's another woman in the wings, it means they are not sharing that special if often abusive bond; someone else is getting his attention too. It may finally make her realise he doesn't love her.

Unfortunately if she gives him enough time, he may be able to explain away even this, so that she can rationalise him spending time away as him having needs that only she can understand, and as long as he comes home to (knock the shit out of) her at the end of the day, it's ok. As long as he needs me, I know where I must be - and you know what happened to the girl who sang that.

When people on "that" thread were totally reasonably saying "forget about the shagging, look what he's doing to you", although I absolutely agreed with their point of view, I kind of wonder whether it is really the best thing to say in the circumstances. Everything he'd done was awful and getting worse, which she somehow saw as getting better! ... but in a little while he's going to get a wee bit smart and instead of making threats is going to say how much he misses and needs her, and that's when a woman most often goes back. Maybe she should be encouraged to dwell on the shagging around, and realise it proves he doesn't need her, doesn't love her, is treating her as a domestic skivvy and sharing those special moments with at least one, probably two, and possibly more other women. Indeed if she were to vanish off the face of the earth he would just move on to another woman, as he's half-way there already. The only reason he cares about her leaving is his ego. Women don't leave him and get away with it. Missing her as a person, don't make him laugh.

But SGB did you think that at the time and why didn't you leave him before the affair?

CF: I think I realised fairly quickly that I was much, much better off without him, and to an extent the relationship was dwindling anyway and I would probably have moved on anyway (I was seeing him in my final year at university, the OW moved in when term ended and I went home to my parents so was away from him though still 'officially' his GF).

I didn;t leave him because I was a silly young knobber who thought I might be able to 'change' him by being a 'better GF'.

My relationship was falling apart after I got my XP arrested for DV, it had been going on for two years. Even after he was arrested I tried to patch it up (doh), for five months. Then I found out he was being unfaithful and that was what made me end it.

Finally realised he really didn't give a shit about me, that everything I thought was 'special' between us was just a lie. I thought he could change his violent behaviour but when I caught him lying and cheating as well I realised I meant nothing to him.

Realised I didn't even really know who he was. Moved out of house and began a new life etc. Fell apart at the seams at the time, but friends and family were very relieved when I finally worked it out

All history now , but can totally understand why sometimes infidelity can be the last straw.

such a good thread,can relate to many posts

I have no understanding of allowing your children to go through it.

My mother left after she "fell out of love" with my father. That was after 16 yrs of our hospitalisations and humiliations
She will still say "he never looked at another woman" with some pride

this has been an excellent thread and something I've long wondered about, thanks

Thanks for starting this thread, even if nobody listens, I know I can at least express what I think on this thread without it being deemed (perhaps rightly) "inappropriate".
It's the RIGHT place to say what I think.

It's hard to say how I feel about women who deem the terrorisation of them and their children to be "better" than infidelity.

This VIEW angers and frustrates me- a man who cheats may be a lousy "Lover" to his wife but can STILL be a good dad to his children. How can a man who beats his wife ever be a good father?

I try to understand. I understand that if a woman is deprived of a loving background she'll put up with any old crap as long as guy is faithful.
(Having said this, I have to accept that some women are selfish bitches who as long as they get "exclusivity" to their partner sexually, they don't care about their children. It does happen, but I think mostly it's because the woman's values are warped).
Nevertheless, I strongly agree that IF children are at risk, her feelings come last. Sorry but the priority is the children's safety.

But if someone is NOT a bitch I think it is the right thing to say, "Look your view is twisted" and encourage someone to question WHY this might be.

When the RIGHT time to do this is I don't know, and it probably takes a trained professional to do it, but I can't see the cycle of abuse ending happening until SOMEONE does.

The trouble is Marantha, you don't know what 'normality' is anymore. you spend so long being told black is white and so on, that you cannot make decisions for yourself.

I don't come from an emotionally deprived background, I have a good relationship with my parents, we can discuss most things.

However, my ex-h spent a long time 'brainwashing' me until I believed everything he said. I stopped confiding in my parents, I didn't have any friends of 'my own'

Then, the violence started, he was very abusive and very clever. People thought that he was lovely because he 'adored' me so much that I wasn't allowed to go shopping on my own. He did everything for me, chose my clothes, told me what perfume I liked etc.

He used to make me 'choose' why he was going to beat me, and I did, I allowed this perverted travesty of a relationship to go on and on.

We had 2 beautiful little boys and I would make the inside of my mouth bleed by biting it so that they didn't hear me cry, I kidded myself that as long as they didn't hear me cry then it was going to be ok. If they did hear anything, their dad would hurt me more.

I lived like that for 7 years, the final straw for me? When he left his wedding ring on the bathroom shelf when he went out to work (he was a doorman)

I knew that he was being unfaithful/ sleeping around. That was my wake up call.

I could take all the beatings in the world, but I couldn't bear the thought of him sleeping with someone else. That to me seemed like the biggest betrayal of our 'love'

It wasn't until several years later that I honestly saw how warped my thought processes had become. He had done such a good job on me that sex was a bigger deal than beatings, of course its wrong but when you have been isolated for so long, had no-one elses' input and are so ground down by your situation then you kind of grab hold of anything.

You cannot make someone in that situation see sense, they will only be able to do that when something breaks. Telling someone that their thinking is wrong is something that they hear everyday, they know that, their abuser has made sure that they don't believe their own thoughts.

You cannot make them question why, they don't know how to question, they only know how to live on a day to day basis and hope that they don't set him off tonight.

No woman has to choose which is worse, it's a false choice, both are awful.

Though admittedly women are not just "beaten" but also killed by men's violence.

For me, it was the romance of "you and me against the world". The passion and intensity of so much attention and physical contact.
From such an alpha male.

I had a pretty crap childhood but was used to being a coper and a survivor.And I loved fairy stories as a child.

He brainwashed me into believing I had found "my soulmate".

This is what kept me hanging on when the controlling behaviour and emotional abuse started.
I believed that enough of my "true love" would help him to get over his fear of abandonment.

Texts from OW while I was in hospital having our baby , made me realise I could not possibly be so special to him.

He had introduced various OW to the only member of his family that I had met.

The betrayal of our "special bond" caused a sharper pain than the numerous ugly names and miserable scenes.

The realisation that I was willing to tolerate so much for this belief in fairy tales,that I thought all the crap was love,has shown me that I have some serious self examination to do.

I really wonder if I would recognise a decent man or a good relationship.I fear I might give up ,finding it boring without the intensity and drama.

I wont be trying again for a while.

One of my favourite fairy tales was The Little Mermaid. It's one of my mother's as well. In the story, a mermaid falls in love with a human. Because she's so sweet, and so much in love, the Sea King grants her the option of walking on the land. The price she must pay to be with her love is that, for as long as she walks on land, every step will hurt as though her legs were knives. Of course, she chooses unimaginable pain for love.

The story informed me (as it still informs my mother) that love causes great pain - and is worth the sacrifice. In my case, I extended the 'pain' and persuaded myself I could live with infidelity. I finally dropped X#1 when he announced he was in love with an OW and couldn't live without either of us - he seriously expected us to come to an agreement over it.

I didn't even question the beatings, imprisonments & stranglings until several years after we'd split.

I still struggle to envision a love without sacrifice (but am getting there!) My mum's partner requires no sacrifices, but she persists in making them anyway.

If you remember the end of the story, though, Grace - maybe the version you had left the end off? - but what happened is that he was already in love with someone else, his childhood sweetheart or something, and duly married her. The mermaid danced in pain and longing at his wedding, then cast herself into the sea and felt her body dissolve into foam (the other part of the bargain was that she could never return to the sea). So the lesson should have been: whatever sacrifices you make for love, sometimes they are ultimately fruitless.

Wow, Annie! Thank you!

The story must have had its ending while I read it - but that part never made it into Mum's mythology. I had completely forgotten about it. Now I KNOW she was a fool to even consider the sacrifice

Ah marantha, this is the thread I tried to direct you to ages ago, I am glad you finally came onto it, what I wanted to say is you are absolutely right, it is the wrong thing to do to stay with an abusive man, it is wrong to stay with a man if he beats you or abuses you in any way and if you have children full stop.

That doesnt mean it doesnt happen and that we should vilify the women who stay when they are making an attempt to leave, these women have been told for years that they are scum, incapable, stupid, dirty and they wont ever get anyone better, they need to build up to leaving and need huge amounts of emotional support, they also feel ashamed and want to feel independant, the other thread was the wrong place for your remarks because you wanted to discuss the academics of women leaving, your points were correct and the op agreed with them, in fact I dont think anyone would disagree with them but there are so many of us who stayed in face of violence for no rational reason who understand humans dont always behave rationally, I never thought you should have been spoken to the way you were on the other thread but as you say it wasnt the right place for it, people were feeling scared for the op and wanted to protect her.

re. women being hurt and killed by violence...

Infidelity is not without health risks to women (and men) and unborn or future children. For example, chlamydia can blind and cause pneumonia to a baby if transmitted at birth and cause infertility to women.

Men (and women) who shag around don't tend to think to protect their partner (or unborn child)'s health.

mumoftwoteenboys, I understand your point that the woman has to be the one who sees for herself how bad her partner is and nobody can make her see it via logic.

And if it's only her (and I don't mean "only" as in trivial or unimportant but "only" as in her children aren't being harmed by abuser) then, yes, OK, it may be OK to let her "see the light" in her own time.

But, if abuser is suspected of hurting children, then I don't think it's on to wait for her to have an epiphany.
It's not on at all, she must leave there and then and be told, "sorry, but your home, possessions and everything else come second".

I had a misguided notion that if abuser harmed her child that would be the "wake up call" for ALL women, sadly, from what I've read on mn, it doesn't always appear to be the case.

As someone who is coming to terms with some pretty vile behaviour towards my DH I have another perspective.

Because of the breakdown of our relationship over many years I lost respect for him and was treating him abusively because of massive resentment and anger. In my case this was with sarcasm, put downs and unkindness. Death by a thousand cuts.

Then when I was tempted to have an affair my lack of respect for DH allowed me to behave in a way I never would accept normally. It was of a piece with my awful behaviour generally.

I understand the question is about why someone accepts abuse but not infidelity, but both seem to me about an ultimate lack of respect for your partner.

Great thread and very thought provoking too!

Marantha

You cannot tell an abused woman to go because the children are being abused. The abuse is normality, the verbal and physical pain is normal.

I used to make sure that the boys didn't do anything to 'upset' daddy. We used to go out early on a sunday morning to play at the park, I used to make it a game (lets see how quietly we can leave the house) We would be back before he woke up.

You have to remember, most abused women (and by assocciation their children) believe that they have nowhere to go. If you don't have any friends or family around you, who do you turn to for help?

From the outside, its very easy to have opinions and views but when you are living it, it is so hard to accept that your normality is wrong.

Its like a siege mentality, you just hunker down and hope that things don't get worse. Most women that I have met over the years have made sure that they have taken all the punishment doled out, no mother would willingly stand by and watch their child be hurt, so they take the beatings instead. I know that I did on so many occassions.

Does that make me worthy of condemnation? I did the best I could by my sons, do I feel guilty that I stayed so long? Yes of course I do. Can I look them in the eye and tell them I did the best I knew how? Yes, I can but I live with the knowledge that it wasn't soon enough. I live with the notion that people don't understand why I stayed. That hurts, abused women are like frightened kids themselves, we don't know what to do or how to ask for help.

mumof2teenboys You're right- you can't tell an abused woman to go BUT, if abuse of children is suspected by other adults, then society has to intervene. There's no waiting for her to see the light.

I don't think for one second that you're worthy of condemnation. Seems to me that your mind was seriously screwed up.