anyone else wondering whether marriage is really over? does it end with a whimper not a bang?

[tiredsadfedup]

Here's how things are with me and DH. Since conceiving DS over 3 years ago we have had sex twice, in order to conceive DD, which we did on the second occasion. We suffered recurrent miscarriages before DS was conceived, and were v scared of losing him during pregnancy (ditto with DD) - not an aphrodisiac. DS now 2.5 yrs and DD 9 months. Lovely and v happy kids, we think. But our relationship has completely stalled. We don't share a bed because DD doesn't sleep well and cosleeps with me, and DH doesn't want to sleep in bed with us (+ he's an insomniac). We have no childcare for the evenings and haven't been out together as a couple since DS was conceived over 3 years ago (I was ill and exhausted during both pregnancies). We have little physical contact, little physical affection, and as I said, no sex. I can imagine going on like this for years to come. I don't miss sex at all, and have no desires for anyone else. I love and trust DH, and we work wonderfully together as parents - the kids are everything to us. But my fear is that when we get to the point of having the opportunity to spend proper couple time together again - whenever that is - there will be nothing left. I have no wish to leave him, and I know he wants to stay with me. We talk about our problems pretty often, and mostly reasonably, but nothing seems to change. Is this the process of 'growing apart'? Has anyone been through this and come out the other side to find the relationship is still there? Is it normal to feel so numb? Is there hope?

Firstly ((hugs)) to you. You sound like you are going through a pretty tough time. Have you ever thought that you might have Post Natal Depression? Just thinking with the lack of sex drive and numbness?

Otherwise maybe couples counselling so you can get a clear idea of where you are heading? When I split with my ex I had similar feelings to you. We felt very distant, but we/I had other issues (including PND).

I wonder how many marriages are wrecked by having a child replace a husband in bed?
Co-sleeping sounds like a one way route to ending intimacy in a relationship to me.

Get your dd out of the marital bed and your husband back into it, you may well start growing closer again instead of growing even further apart?

It's no wonder you are knackered with having 2 kids so close together, it does get easier as they get older but you really both need to work at being a couple again.
The first five years of child rearing is one long slog for most couples, but you don't sound like you're committed to your marriage particularly strongly.

You need to spend time as a couple, almost like starting a new relationship.

Sending you a big hug no-one ever explains do they that everything gets tipped upside down when you have DC.....i'm in relatively the same position as you find yourself now, with previous MC's 2 scary pregnancies and with two DC and with the same age gap,and a FT job and it's blooming hard work.... I do sometimes feel that my relationship has become 'flat' we talk about nursery, weaning, tantrums and not very much about us....but let's be honest....we have become parents.....My DH and I have the DC at the top of our priority list, and we are relatively low/bottom of the pecking order now.....i guess we've both come to accept that at the moment, the DC come way before us as a couple.....that we're kind of "Marking time" until they get a little older, less dependant and we can have a bit of space to be a couple. We do have a date night once a month, but we don't often go out, just candles and dinner and a long interrupted talk about life in general....i've reappraised our relationship from the less responsible couple thing but appreciate what we have more, the trust, the honesty, the love....just like you do with DH, you sound to me like you're putting yourself under a heap of pressure to get things "normal".....but take a deep breath because at the moment this is "normal" for you......you're not superwoman, and things need to balance out and find their own level again, and they will....if you miss affection, like i did, rather than anything more energetic, instigate the hugs and kisses, my DH once told me, that he got so very used to being wary of touching my whilst preganant, that it began to feel normal not to do it....and in time i promise that things will begin to improve...my DH and I are hugely proud of our children and the fact that we're hanging on in there....and you should be too HTH X

teacherwithtots - thank you so much it brought tears to my eyes to read your post. I don't want to split with DH at all, and on our less exhausted and therefore more positive days we are, like you, proud of how we put the kids first at every turn, and of how we are managing to juggle everything without totally losing the plot. I forgot to mention that - like you - I work FT, and so does he, both in very demanding high pressure jobs. Plus we have my ageing and quite ill father living with us. I appreciate Babanaliliana's and Malificence's comments, but I don't think the problem is PND, or co-sleeping necessarily (we will put an end to that soon). It's just the total lack of time we have for anything other than kids (love them love them) and work (no choice). Sometimes I speak to other people with tiny kids who go on about how tired they are, how hard it is etc, and then I discover that they have an extended family living close by and that the babysitter-on-tap make it possible for them to have a night off a week, and a weekend off every month. They don't know they're born! DH and I seem to spend all our energy making life fun for our babies, with any remaining time spent just managing our own tiredness. Your 'marking time' comment really hits the spot with me - that's exactly how I feel. And the issue with sex isn't really about sex, it's about intimacy. That's what I worry about losing. My state of mind right now is that I am trusting in DH, and our relationship, to last the course, and for us to pull through and return to each other once the kids need us less (or less constantly). I want to take the gamble - I'm taking the gamble - but I guess I just needed reassurance that other people out there are betting in the same way I am. My hope is that we'll look back and be incredibly proud of how we did all of this on our own, but my fear is that there won't be any 'we' left once the big slog of v young kids is over. I'm going to hang in there.

You are not the only one to feel like this - I totally understand where you are coming from.

Sometimes it is like we are looking at each other from a huge distance with the occasional wave just to remind ourselves we are still married to each other!!

Find yourselves as people and as a couple! You don't even have to go out to start trying to do that..

Talk about the future.. the trips you'll take when the kids are old enough to packed off to a Summer camp etc

Play scrabble or cards... swap books.. whatever floats your boat.. but FORCE yourself to speak about other stuff..

FWIW my two are 4 and 2.. have no extended family or similar help either.. babysitter once in a very blue moon..

and like you, I feel like we go so far for everything to be nice and good and fun for the dcs.. but we can and do factor ourselves in there somewhere.. a lazy picnic where the kids are roaming about killing each other and we lie on the grass and talk about life, a bottle of wine over a nice dinner..

Somebody once said to me, and it ahs stayed with me, that the best thing you can do for your kids is to let them see their parents happy..

Good luck!

That really, really doesn't sound like a marriage that's all over bar the shouting. Talk to each other and hug when you get the chance (in the doorway when passing, whilst washing up, or as you fall into bed exhausted but before your eyes close!), remind him how much you appreciate him; and yes, it should all ease off shortly as one and then the other starts school. Feels like forever at the moment, but you'll be surprised how soon the time passes.

Totally agree with mamsnet, you HAVE to have time to yourselves. I don't agree with 'we're parents now we must surrender ourselves to the children entirely for the next 18 years'.
You are people, you have lives and passions and interests and selfish needs and it is healthy for the dc to see that. You're their role models.
It is hard, you are in a rut and luckily you are obviously still good friends and have a lovely family unit but you must make an effort for all your sakes.
The baby in the bed thing, is an excuse. You know that. As is insomnia/snoring/work hours.
Do you want to wake up at 50/60 years old and think shit I forgot to live my own life?
Your marriage isn't over imo, but you have to fan the flames and do all the tings mamsnet suggests. Good luck.

Please be reassured that you are betting on exactly the same thing as I am.....Good for you and fingers crossed for some "selfish" time for both of us in the not too distant future

I can really relate to your situation.

This can drag on and on, especially if neither of you knows how to break the cycle of lack of affection. Are you each waiting for the other to change the status quo?

My advice would be to do something serious and significant about it now, rather than let it go on and on. A few weeks of couples counselling might be all it takes to get you back on track. It would be worth the time/money investment.

Having children brings massive changes to any relationship, there's no shame in needing help to adjust to your new roles and responsibilities.

The sleep situation might get easier in a few years, but your relationship could be even more in the doldrums by then.

I wish I had knocked it on the head at your stage, rather than leaving it, and hoping for things to somehow magically sort themselves out.

it's all very well to put your children first every time, but sometimes, adults need to come first too you know! Will you be so proud of putting your children first every time when you wake up one day to find their is no marriage left for you and DH to share? Sometimes, you have to put yourselves and your relationship first in order to do the right thing by your children.

I agree with Mal about the co-sleeping. How long will it take to 'wean' DD off it? it isn't going to happen overnight is it? When DCs are small, of course the sex life tends to take a dive, but that doesn't mean you have to lose intimacy and one of the best ways to maintain that is to sleep together.

You don't have to go out in order to start 'courting' again. We never had babysitters available when the DCs were small, so we just used to get a take away and a dvd, or play a game, or just chat about anything other than the children.

Start putting yourselves first for a change, or you may find that you end up as housemates rather than a couple and that really would not be putting your DCs first!

My DC are older now (10, 8, 4). When they were younger there was no energy for anything else and I thought we had grown apart. We considered separating, but held on.

Things did improve gradually. It started with morning lie ins on a Saturday when the kids were old enough to watch kids tv on their own. We started to use a baby sitting agency and went out 1 a month. 1 a month we also had a date night at home - a takeaway, a bottle of wine and a DVD cuddled up on the sofa. We also managed a weekend away without the kids - it was expensive but it felt like a turning point in our relationship.

I'd say we're now closer than ever. We'd been together happily for 16 years before the kids came along, but the first few years with the kids nearly broke us. But you can get through it

Remember that to put your kids first, you sometimes have to put yourselves first. The stronger you two are as a couple the more you will help to ensure your children's happiness - by having happy parents and keeping your family together.

I really hope it works out for all of you.

I think we do need to get back into the same bed together - it's a basic thing for a marriage, isn't it. I sometimes feel so spoiled and ashamed for not being able to keep our relationship in a thriving state, esp after the repeated MCs. We finally got the longed for babies we wanted, and all we can do is plod on and moan about being tired. But the reality is that it is very hard, esp with 2 parents working FT and no possibility of a break. SmileyMylee - your story is lovely. When DD starts sleeping through (Ha! topic for another thread methinks) we will get a babysitter and make the effort to get out. We used to spend so much time together, laughing our heads off and never getting bored with each other, and I miss it. We so sometimes talk about 'the holiday' we will take when the kids are old enough not to come too (no idea when that will be ...) - we will not feel guilty about spending lots of money on a totally indulgent break, eating well, drinking fine wine, and sleeeeeeeeeeping. And then I think about a poem by Peggy Carr - 'Flight of the Firstborn' www.booksfromscotland.com/Features/Poetry/Poems-United - which really moves me, and I wonder whether, when it becomes possible for us to take that holiday, we'll be looking back at now with longing ...

Anyway, thanks to all for your posts. May well have saved my marriage.

I spent all day yesterday thinking about you!

I don't want to sound like a stalker but it's a situation that rings true for so many MNers..

Be good to yourself.. take NOTHING for granted... and start with hugs!! I always find a good hug energises me!

Start with the little things and make them habits, a soft but passionate kiss at every opportunity , a touch of hands, a stroking of each other, washing each other in the bath, just talking about the future, what you're going to do, where you're going to go.

And look at each other, into each other's eyes, it creates that spark.

And if you shudder at the thought of doing those things Malificence suggests then yes, your marriage is probably dead...