How many chances do I give him?

[Gravitygirl]

I really need some serious help and support here, I have no one else to turn too and am going to go insane.

There is such a huge history here that this will probably be a bit of an essay but please bear with me.

I have been with my H for 8 years, married 6, we have to DC DD4 and DS 2 1/2. Life is tough, our DD has a disability, we have litte/no family support and we have both had ( although Im the only one that will admit) horrendous childhoods. I have many imperfections on my personality due to childhood neglect, emotional abuse and terrible insecurity ( this is the only bit over the years that ha gotten better).

My problem is, and I guess that I should have realised this from the beginning, our relationship wa extremly volatile. Me with terrible jealousy/insecurity issues, him with complete rage, aggression issues I know I was a nightmare, and have been in psychotherapy for 2 years trying to sort my life out, and have worked on myself alot. During this time I have come to realise that a huge part of my problem is that my relationship with H is not good, and that I dont actually get anything that I need from him.
I have read alot on here, and believe that he is emotinal abusive towards me, combined with his aggression I am in a very unhappy place. He is and always has been ( I can see now) emotionally distant, Ive always felt I have had to work for his love, and I never quite reach it. There are many examples of his behaviour, I find it hard to recall them all, but I know they have happened.
My main issue in all this is my children and them being damaged by us, by the constant bickering, the total lack of love and affection between us ( I cant bring myself to have sex with him, Im so hurt by him and what I think he is doing/acting) Its completley destroying us.
I have had a long talk with him and I really thought he was going to take it all on board, things were going well and so I felt able to make love with him, the minute I did he changed back again, I know this all sounds so confusing, but that is just what I am, confused as hell

I cant bring myself to fully trust my judgement, my self esteem is quite poor. I dont know wether Im about to break up a family because of my issues or that there is something really wrong here with my H.
All I know is that from past relationships, when I cry, Im confronted, my childhood is understood, empathised with, I felt loved and cared in a way I have never really felt from my H.

I just dont know what to do, please help me, I feel in such physical pain and turmoil and Im lost as to what is right or wrong here.

Im sure he twists things, I feel unsure that Im actually thinking clear and start to believe its me in the wrong, then I wonder if I am playing the'victim' Im so confused. He is always so angry with me, always picking, always finding things to say that he knows will upset me. The amount of appaling things he has said to me over the years, would shock you, I actually cant believe taht he can love me at all, but something inside me says keep trying....

Today i feel even worse, I logged onto facebook , and his page came up, nothing sinister but there was a girl on there that worked in the same building as him and she left about 6 months ago, they were'nt friends as far as I know) and a few months ago I asked why she remained on his profile, he got huffy , reminded me of my jealusy and said he would delete her. This is not actually what I asked him to do, I just needed/wanted to hear a reassuring explanation I guess. Anyway, today as I came across her page, there are updates from her on his news feed, I was a bit suprised she was on there, so rang him and asked why she was, he got furious with me, said he had no intention of deleting her etc etc, its all my jealousy.

Now the fact that she is on there isnt actually a problem as such, its his repsonse, its the way he makes me feel as if there is something to worry about. Im not actually thinking there is anything sinister, its purely his reaction . Does that make sense?
I know Im not behaving appropriatley, I understand my issues are not easy to live with, but I kind of believed also that if he loved me, he would not make me feel worse, who knows maybe Im wrong......

Im just so desperate as to what to do, it all feels so hopeless and I am in such pain.

Please be gentle with me.

it doesnt sound to me that he loves you either,but then again,i dont know him!

you mention aggression? is he ever violent?

Hi Gravity

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time. I think you maybe need to inform yourself. If you think from reading on here that your h may be emotionally abusive, then have a look at the women's aid website, the freedom programme website, and maybe look for the Lundy Bancroft and Patricia Evans books on Amazon. Sometimes they have free sample pages to look at.

Emotional abuse is just so insidious, cruel and slowly undermines your very existence.

Have a look at the long thread....probably page two or three by now on here about emotional abuse.

He has never really been physically violent,there have been times where he has moed me roughly out of the way, grabbed my wrist a bit too hard etc.... All little things but never actually a punch in the face iyswim.

He used to ( in the very early stages) punch holes in walls, throw and break things... infact he still throws things now with no regard to wether they break or nont, but it is rare..

Does it sound like I dont love him then?

no,sounds like he doesnt love you!!!

but i think you know that....and you phoned him about the fb thing knowing he'd blame you for being jealous.....rise above all that stuff. fb....delete it!!

The woman on Facebook is irrelevant.

The problem isn't even that he doesn't, or is unable to, love you.

The problem is that he is unable or unwilling to treat the mother of his children, and thus his children, with kindness and respect.

As you have recognised, this is damaging your children. You are repeating the patterns of your childhoods and damning your children to the same fate.

If he was sexually abusing your children you would act immediately no? Well, I'm sorry to say that they are being abused, just in a different way and you MUST act now to save them from a future like yours and your husband's.

So there needs to be no confusion, or torment about what to do. Get him out of your life and your children's lives now. He will never change, he will never be a nice person, he will never be the man you vainly hope he can be. He can't. He doesn't know how. His nastiness, aggression and vile abuse are his normal way of being. That is him.

Leave, or get him out, for your children's sakes if not your own.

If you don't you will spend the rest of your life regretting it.

The problem is, Im worried about wether this is my fault, wether because of my past its me that is causing this.
I cant bring myself to believe that he is the nasty horrible person, no one would believe it. They would see it as my fault for rejecting him, a hard working bloke that does his best to support his family finacially. But that is just it, thats all he brings..... nothing emotional.

And then, he has started helping out more at home, started to cook more etc, all things Ive asked him to do. That makes me the unreasonable one, doesnt it?
On the face of it, Im the nasty one here.....

I mean, he could paint a nasty picture against me, poor him having to live with this emotionally volatile woman that makes his life hell for daring to do things I may not like...
Just playing devils advocate with myself...

Can you give us some more examples of the things that he has done over the years?

Hi Gravity, congratulations on working so hard on yourself over the last 2 years. It may be the case that your need to be in this relationship has been linked to your dysfunction, and as you move on from the dysfunction, you are also moving on from your need for the relationship.

It is abuse for him to push you around (doesn't have to be a punch), to break things and to be very aggressive.

Have you any possibility of going to counselling, perhaps through Relate (on your own)? I think you are still in the process of getting clear in your own mind about how you should be treated in a relationship, and this might help you.

And by the way, you don't have to be a saintly victim to be justified in ending a relationship. It doesn't matter if you're the "nasty...emotionally volatile" person. You're not locked in a relationship until you become faultless and therefore allowed to go!

Leaving aside the other issues, I have to say that if my DP rang me at work regarding my facebook account/facebook friends I'd be really cross with him.

It all seems so complicated and stressful for you. I think that the fact that you have had psychotherapy is great, but I also think that you need to take a step back and calmly look at the bigger picture. Maybe some relate counselling (on your own or with H) might be useful?

I'm not sure that there's an issue of 'fault' here, but it seems like there are a few things that need unpicking. Obviously you can't carry on feeling how you do right now.

You are not good together.

Maybe your problems do fuel the bad situations to some extent, but whether or not the blame lies 100% or 90% or 50% with him, the end result is that your children are suffering because of your abusive volatile relationship and you must take them out of it.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says. It doesn't even matter how you and your husband feel about it. You cannot parent successfully together as things stand.

All that matters is that your children have a stable home life, where they do not have to fear screaming rows, shouted abuse, things being thrown and parents being deeply unhappy. The situation will be affecting them far more than even you realise.

Maybe a separation would enable you both to receive the help you need and maybe he could learn how to treat you with respect and maybe you could all be a family again in the future, but for now that doesn't seem to be possible.

Sweetheart, I think he is manipulating & controlling you. I think you know this, too, but your tendency to put yourself down makes it easy for him to "prove" you're in the wrong.

I'd like to remind you, nobody needs proof to end a relationship. You're unhappy and the atmosphere at home is bad. This is enough reason to split up - your kids will thrive better in a more relaxed home.

Obviously you're worried about whether you are being unreasonable, though the fact you've pursued therapy (where he hasn't) makes it unlikely. Still: tell us about when you noticed that girl on his FB page? How did you react? What did you say to him?

Ok Ill try, its very hard to find the head space to do this clearly but here goes....

A recent one....

I am awaiting bariatric surgery , I have an eating disorder. We were at a theme park and I am normally very good at not letting my size ruin things. It was the end of the day and we were trudging back up the hill to get out of the park and I was out of breath, hot day but he kept on with the kids. I asked him to stop and he wouldnt. He then , a few mins later decided to stop as our son needed something out of the rucksack on his back, he literally spat at me that I could have a few seconds rest, so whilst I retrieved the item out of the bag, he snapped at me for making things all uneven and messy in the bag..... I mean, I just cant understand it?
Do I need to explain more here, or can you see the point I am making in this situation, just curious as I would like a unbiased reaction to that..

erm.... he calls me names, he calls me a stupid, lazy ... cow, I am mad like my mother, Im going to ruin the kids, just like my mother. He uses my weaknesses against me..

Im trying to think of another example of him snapping, I dont know why I struggle to remember when they are most definatley there, but thats not helping is it? I guess I should start writing them down when they happen.

He basically does not spare a second thought for me or my feelings, or thats what it feels like.

I half feel that I am complaining about nothing here, my mind is blank, thats whats so confusing

Jesus, you are so not complaining about nothing!

Imagine you were standing on that hill and another family was walking up next to you. Their child asks for something out of the bag, and that scene plays out in front of you. Picture the mother, rummaging in the rucksack, while her husband gives her all that earache.

What would you think?

IsGracevailable, regarding the facebook girl, I asked who she was, why he had added her ( he said becasues all the otehr blokes in the office had) I admit , its my problen with the jealousy but I looked at her profile ( it was avaliable for all to see) and it had provactive photos of her pool dancing, legs akimbo, finger in mouth type of thing and it made me feel really uncomfortable, more so that all the 'blokes at work' have added her, like she is their little sex thing, they all get of on ( again my projection) .
I seriously dont have any more reason to worry than that, i just didnt like it.
I think she is insignificant, but its the fact that she remains there I dont like, he has always done this, put other peoples feelings before mine.
I have not mentioned these photos to him , there seems little point, her would prob deny ever looking at her profile. Interetingly , today the photos were not there.

He didnt rant at me though, it was quiet and under his breath if that makes sense...

Another thing he does, is gets angry if he thinks I have embarressed him, as in I say something he doesnt think should be said in public, or do somthing he does not like, he gets furious with me, and then starts trying to embarras me, put me down in front of random people. If I start welling up, he storms of leaving me feeling utterly heartbroken and helpless.

Again, I dont kow if that is normal?

I have no basis of any normal relationship to know what is right or wrong, I am so confused as to what I should be doing here, although I do hear what some of you are saying as in the end of the day our relationship is no good and it will be affecting the kids so that should be enough to walk away.

Imagine another person speaking to you like that, under their breath or outloud is irrelevent.

How would that be...would that be ok? If the checkout person at the shop spoke to you like that? What would you think?

Does he speak to other people with so much rage and so little respect?

No, not normal. On another thread, I mentioned my Simpsons test: when I was trying to work out if my relationship was normal or not, I would try to picture Homer Simpson treating Marge like that. He's not the perfect husband, but no, he never (deliberately) humiliates her in public.

Relationships might involve some conflict - that's normal. But there should be underlying affection and respect. Doesn't sound like that's what you've got.

It's pretty likely one of the other blokes asked her to take the sexy photos down. Some of the other wives/girlfriends will have been annoyed about them, too.

I've got to do some work now but I want to tell you about my 2nd husband. He was emotionally unavailable, critical and manipulative. He would do things like showing lots of affection with our female friends, where he barely even touched me except for sex. He told me I was insecure and jealous (I wasn't before I met him!) and told me I lacked confidence in my appearance (ditto). He did things like ranting at me in Sainsbury's, then insisted it was ME ranting, and he was ashamed of me ... it goes on. You know.

Anyway, after a few years of this I didn't know which way was up and I felt desperate for him to like me. He would disappear for hours at parties, then tell me he'd been there all the time. By now I was so scared that I was needy, insecure & clingy, I tried not to say anything about it. I became very careful not to say anything he might take as criticism. The strain showed. I drank more and, when drunk, I ranted like a mad thing. All that fear, anger & confusion had to come out, you see.

He left me. I was devastated, but underneath I was also very relieved. He told everyone he had to end the marriage because he couldn't take my jealousy, etc. But he did nothing about formalising things, even though he had another girlfriend by now. I sent off for a divorce petition. I filled it in, with something bland like "fundamental incompatibility", and sent it to him. He went ballistic.

So I sent off for another one, and invited him to fill it in. I told him I'd apply for a 5-year divorce if he didn't, but would agree with whatever he wrote for a 2-year one. My divorce papes describe me as some sort of raving, screeching, possessive lunatic. That's okay by me.

I hope this has gone some way to validating your feelings, even if only to show you're not alone!

Thankyou, I am sat herer with tears pouring out as I identify with much of what you say IGA.
I am so confused, mostly because of him twisting things and believing its actually me at fault.

He does not have many female friends ( that I see) so I can only go by how affectionate and kind he is too his male ones, I get jealous of how nice he is to them and the easy going friendship so I gues son another level I can indentify with that. Again I am told that I am mad with jealousy, especially with a bloke for feeling upset about that.

I know the truth deep down, I just dont know what to do, if I have the trength to do it , how everything will pan out, I am a sahm , my dd needs me around for care and many hospital appointment, I ll have no money, we just moved into a new place, 50% funded by my dad to get the mortgage, Ill never afford it on my own and will have let my dad down. Everyone will blame me, I cant bear the thought of my childrem going off with him, a stepmum ( I have huge issues with mine) all these things that make me feel I should just put up with it..

Im going crazy here.

I was told that I was jealous and posessive...so much so that I even kept h a prisoner. (therapists laughed out loud at that one!) Before we got together I was confident and reasonably secure, not jealous or posessive at all.

When I had heard that I was mad, a bully and a pathological liar, and that I was rubbish at my job and other women were better than me, and he wanted them to come to our home to work for him....yes I did get insecure and jealous...who the hell wouldn't.
HE MADE THAT HAPPEN. him...NOT ME.

What the hell has this man done to you?

None of what you describe is normal or acceptable behaviour.

You must try to separate your own shortcomings and failings from his fundamental disrespect for you. He was brought up in a way that did not enable him to learn how to handle any sort of personal conflict or frustration and this is what causes him to treat you in this awful way. That is sad for him but it isn't your fault or your responsibility and no amount of hanging in there, or talking or crying will change that.

You can't help him or save him - you can only save your children.

It would be difficult for him to be "reprogrammed" to behave like a normal person with you. In the meantime your children are being programmed to be dysfunctional.

I'm sorry to keep banging on about it but the potential affect on your children of your domestic situation is bad enough to end it.

I understand your fears and worries about leaving, I really do. And yes, not knowing how to pay for the roof over your head is going to be a nightmare. But there is help out there. Your father will help you. You have to ask for it. You and your children will not go homeless or hungry and things will get sorted out.

The alternative is that you carry on throwing your life away on this miserable existence until one day your adult children turn to you and tell you that their childhoods were miserable and unhappy and that their current problems are your fault - because you didn't separate from their father.

You only get one life and its a bloody short one. Stop wasting it.

You see, I know that I was a jealous and possesive person before meeting him, it wasnt as acute but i wasnt good.
I was terribly insecure and I guess he may have played on that, but he reckons most of his anger is because I made him like that, Its my fault that he gets instantly angry if I stat being a bit insecure as he says he knows whats coming... In reality these days nothing happends, I have not got the energy to behave that way, or feel those feelings. I suppoose in a way its because I have become more detached myself.

He does notdisplay all the behaviours of a typical ea partner, he encourages me to go out with friends, telling me he wants me to have fun, he encourages outside interests but they are impossible for me to do ( and maybe he knows that).

He does tell me that his behaviour is modelled on how I behave. Im not allowed to get angry as he will trump that, Im not allowed to really show any emotion, I now realise, although I dont know why....
Only HEis allowed to be angry, apprently any anger I have is unjustified.

Its so wierd, its like jekyll and hide, one minute everything is fine and we are planning the rest of our life and the next it feels like the end of the world.

To make matters worse in all this, the theraist I have been seeing for 2 yrs, I have jsut had finding pulled ( it was private) so now I am completley alone, I only have one option of a friend to talk too, and I dont know wether I can trust her with this ( she is an old friend that has made reapperance in my life).

Most EA partners don't do everything on the EA list of behaviours. Telling you that his behaviour is based on yours is a classic strategy - it means nothing is ever his fault.

Can you sound out this friend to see if you can trust her? We all need someone to talk to.