Unhappy in my marriage - DH emotionally detached

[wonderingifthisisit]

I really could do with some advice about my marriage (have namechanged). DH and I have been together for 12 years or so. We have two lovely children. We were reasonably happy for the first few years, but as things have got more stressful and complicated following children, our relationship has steadily deteriorated.

Basically, we've always just done our own thing and paid little attention to our relationship. And while this worked for a long time, I've come to understand that it isn't really enough to sustain a marriage - and that I want and need more commitment, support and love. But DH is happy with things as they are (other than wishing there was a bit more sex, but I don't feel particuarly interested when I am ignored the rest of the time). He agrees that he isn't particularly emotional, but is very happy with himself, doesn't want to change, and thinks that emotional men are a bit weak. And he won't change. And resents the implication that he should.

I forced him to go to Relate. And within the first session the counsellor had reached the same point as me - that he's essentially emotionally detached, but happy to be so and unwilling to change. And that I am probably a bit detached too, which is why we got along together for as long as we did, but that I have changed over the years and following the kids, and am now looking for more from him.

We have sex maybe 3 times a month but otherwise there is no intimacy, no hugs, kisses, no 'I loves you's. When pushed, DH will say 'of course I love you' and says he respects me enormously. But there is no evidence of this love. There used to be more, but since the kids and him getting preoccupied with work and study, this is just not a priority for him.

He has shown me over and over again that whenever I really need him, he retreats and gets consumed with his own thoughts and activities. He gets overwelmed, cannot provide support, and becomes entirely self-centered. Which I forget when life is just bubbling along normally and I don't particularly need help and love. But remember again when I turn for him and he's emotionally not there. So I just do everything myself. And I'm tired of not being looked after in any aspect of my life.

He says he likes talking to me, but never organises anything for us to do together or expresses any particular interest in us being together. We have babysitters freely available, but I have to make all the effort. I can expect little/no effort for birthdays. I've tried date nights etc. I had to force him to go away for our anniversary. And we had a better time when we did our own thing while we were away.

We can't agree on basic stuff like where to live, because we are really two people living separate lives in the same house - which is exactly how he wants it. ie.e unaffected by the other person.

Now we just find it harder to be together. We find it easier to do things alone with the kids, because otherwise we bicker in the weekends. We even take the kids away on holiday alone because we don't really want to be together. Earlier in the month he was away for work for a week and neither of us missed the other in the slightest (although obviously he missed the kids).

Which leaves me with an otherwise decent man who is a good father to our children, reliable and honest, and who I can have a laugh with and interesting conversations - but who will never wrap his arms around and adore me, and who isn't there when I really need him.

There's no hope is there? He's also disconnected from his mother (politeness, but nothing more which drives her insane) and from what I gather all previous relationships ended with girlfriends getting similary frustrated and angry with his inability to connect.

I've been depressed, angry and miserable about this for 3 years or so, and can't bear much more of it - it's a very lonely place -but don't want to walk away without really feeling like I tried my best.

Anyone else had experience of this?

[Kiwiinkits]

Hi
I hope this doesn't seem too Stepford Wife. It is a loving approach (which you may have already tried). Loving starts with trying to understand and empathise. As a starting point, remind yourself that however cold he feels to you, he is an emotional creature too. Men hurt, sometimes way more deeply than they let on. He could be hurting from the things that have come out between you about your marriage. He could be very unsure about what to do to make you happy. Believe that deep down he wants to make you happy. You have to make this leap to trusting him, and trusting that he loves you, at least for now. He seems distant, but he could be putting up a series of walls to protect himself from the pain of feeling like he is failing you. Maybe you seem to him like whatever he does, you're never satisfied. He's in his man cave, as it were.
I guess all i'm saying is, go easy on him. Be loving. Try to understand him. And try this strategy: tell him every day that you appreciate him. Give him specific examples of things you are pleased with. Things that you love about him. Try to think of positive things to say to him. It may be hard, but think of it as an investment.

I'm a big believer in creating positive cycles. Men are like women are like children. We all thrive on positive reinforcement. If you give him love and praise, then he may well feel more empowered to give you the same things back. Worth a try, anyway.

If, after a month of actively loving and appreciating him he is still cold and distant, then go through with the trial separation. All is probably lost.

[TDiddy]

Kiwiinkits - You have a really good point about positive cycles...you are very good at this...any chance of a free consultation ?

[wonderingifthisisit]

Hmmm. Much food for thought. Thanks Hester for your story. I think I thought I might be able to get that defining moment with him and shock him into doing something, like it sounds like is working for you and your DH. But it's not working so far.

Good luck Scarlet88. That sounds hard but I can see what you're doing. Perhaps when your dd is older you'll feel differently about making a break.

And thanks Kwiwiinkits and toja555 for different and interesting view points on this.

But I just don't know about the approach you suggest. I'm afraid I do think it rather Stepford Wives. DH is very happy for me to earn more, delighted to be thoroughly modern in terms of marrying and enjoying a bright woman, gets meals cooked everyday, all washing etc done, and yet also needs be tiptoed around incase he gets hurt and retreats to his man cave?

You're probably right that the loving him approach would work. But you know what, I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that. I'm almost scared it will work. And then what? I have to be always on my guard making sure I'm making enough effort to keep him loved enough so that he loves me. Where am I in this? Who is looking after me? And if I'm exhausted or stressed or in need of support and, heaven forbid, don't make him feel good or respected enough, then I can't expect love, support and respect anyway?

I'm not sure I can be bothered, to be honest. That sounds awful, but it's true. Because I get nothing back. Yes, I am resentful. And I do need to get over it if I am to repair my marriage. But he had my respect. I wouldn't have married and had two children with him if he didn't. I had no reason to think he wasn't a fine man who would always be there for him - my respect, I thought, was inherent in all my actions.

He let me down first. This is petty I know. But he left me (not physically, but in reality) to deal with the hell that was our second child when I desperately needed him. I begged him to help. He needed to go for a run. I cried for his help. He slept in another room in case he got disturbed. He let me down again and again and again.

And now I don't trust him. And do resent the fact that not only do I have to do everything else, but I might also have to do all the work to rebuild his selfesteem up to the point where he might, just might, be able to give me the love and support that I thought he promised me anyway when we married.

Sorry. I'm ranting. And may have misunderstood the approach you're suggesting. But I'm feeling hopeless about this.

[toja555]

Kwiwiinkits expressed similar idea to my recent discovery, which I posted a link about before. What Kwiwiinkits calls appreciation, my theory (not mine, but the one I found) calls respect, which could make things to OP a bit different.
Wonderingifthisisit, I don?t think that doing all things and showing ?love? is the right approach ? obviously, this is not rewarding, not motivating and leads to some kind of self-esteem destruction. From what I understand the idea is a little different. You show DH your respect. You are not required to show love which you may not feel at the time. Just be polite, no shouting, a bit of smile and polite conversation, asking his opinion, showing even little interest in what is he doing, little praising for the things that DH has done. You don?t have to say ?love you? and be overcaring though. I understand that words ?love you ? are not even that important to men as they are to women. Kind of warming the atmosphere and showing that he is not an enemy.
Another thing, which I think is/was my huge mistake, to take responsibility for everything in the house, i.e. meals, bills, cleaning washing kids etc. The theory says that DH feels in a way disrespected and does not bother to get involved either. It is hard to start asking him of doing certain things (probably he will not be instantly happy about new responsibility), but if you don?t try you would never know. I have always felt guilty when I ask DH for help. Still trying to get out the guilt from my head, and it seems I feel better with time. From doing nothing, my DH went to cleaning the house every 2nd weekend, equally with me taking DS to childcare, doing DS routine in mornings (dressing, giving milk and brushing teeth) and cooking for himself when he fancies his cultural meals (then I and DS can eat his meal or get something else for ourselves).
This was achieved step by step. My DH even seems a bit happier, because his connection with DS got tighter over the last couple of weeks. He is definitely not less happy because he is now doing things. The rest of the time (when he is free of duties) he does his own thing.
I also have been contemplating this thought in my mind, that men feel more respected when they get chance to help to their family. And the respect that you show, should motivate them to do so. So you break the circle by showing respect to DH before he involved in family life more, and this should motivate him to do more in the house. In that way your self esteem does not suffer.
I also suggest don?t ask all at once, just implement one thing at once as a routine, then if he refuses to do say ?but you promised, remember?? and wait for it to be done, don?t do yourself. He needs to get used. What he?s done with your second child is unforgivable, but try (maybe the last time) to break the cycle and show this basic respect which you would show to any human being and maybe you will get something back.
I am talking as an expert here, while the truth is that over the last couple of weeks I thought I and DH had reached the end of the path. The approach I found last Friday opened my eyes, it?s absolutely describing my family situation, but I understand it might not be for everyone. I tried this ?basic respect? over the weekend and it gave some positive results. My DH even had stopped wearing wedding ring last week (this hurt me badly), now the ring is back to his finger without me saying nothing about it (whoa).
I thought, even if I don?t get his feelings back, at least I will benefit for the housework share.
I also decided to let him learn from his own mistakes. My DH always puts his personal goals above the family, which I hate. It feels so selfish. But no matter how many times I said ?but you are a married man, you should spend more time with your family?, it never worked and he became even more resentful. It seems my words only made it worse. I decided to keep quiet about, just no point talking again when everything is said. I realised it works better when he has time to contemplate things on his own. As long as I get practical time and at least minimum time together?
Sorry this was long. Just trying to help? makes it easier to share views?

[FairyLightsForever]

I was a child of parents with this kind of relationship and I would like to point out that you are the role models for your children's future relationships... is this what you want for them?
I managed to end up in a relationship with someone very similar to my father and found myself 'begging' for love and affection, as my mother had. He was emotionally unavailable as his father had been to his mother.
We broke up two years ago and I have mostly avoided getting involved again. The two relationships I have started have both ended fairly quickly, as I recognised that yet again I was chosing another emotionally unavailable man.
I am in my 30's and it has taken this long to recognise the warning signs early and to trust my instincts, so that I don't keep getting myself hurt.
Please be aware that your children could end up struggling to have a 'normal' relationship too.

[Sappholit]

I just came on here, looking for someone in a similar situation to me, and I've found it straight away.

I always knew my partner was like this, but I lived with it because it was sort of convenient to me because I'm a bit like it,too.

But we've just had a baby. She's nearly four months, and all the cracks are showing now - I feel so, so low down on my partner's list of priorities. In fact, I feel that I'm at the bottom, and it's very lonely.

[Scarlet88]

can i just say to all you girls,,,,,,,,i'm no expert.......but your choice can be distilled.........either stay for the perks (if there are any!!) or throw the loser out.

In the case of the questioner....WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU GETTING????? I mean, you even earn more!! so what is his purpose exactly. Sounds to me , like you need to find an equal, not a 3rd child !!

You are brill for all the things you can do......so why keep the loser?? If a man is emotionally unavailable etc etc say "bye", don't need ya and your probs ain't mine !!

[TDiddy]

Scarlett88- i understand your view but in practice much more difficult when you are weighing up the interest of the DCs.

[TDiddy]

wonderingifthisisit - hope you are okay. have you had time to reflect?

[IsGraceAvailable]

I'm somewhat stupefied by the "surrendered" approach (in various forms) this thread has recently taken. Mates, I lived it for years. Net result: DH felt ever more secure in his go-as-you-please, detached lifestyle. And I felt increasingly unheard, alone & frazzled.

I am insulted, on behalf of 'dsimissed wives' everywhere, by the assumption that we do not respect our husbands or care about their emotional welfare. I find the implicit assumption that emotional problems are always the woman's fault contemptible. It is laughable to think that any woman would be posting in distress, to an intelligent forum like this one, without self-interrogation.

I can't say those are stupid ideas, as they have their place. IMO they have no place in any of the lives described here.

[TDiddy]

I see what you are saying IsGrace ...I suspect that they were thinking more of trying to rebuild love, affection, attentiveness in relationship rather than really buying into the "surrender" notion?

I was thinking of this thread as I had a massive argument at home last night.

[Craftynap]

Me too. will keep eye on this thread...

[TDiddy]

I show that I care more by practical help than with words...toughish exterior...I do tons at home but DW interprets that as me being a good father whilst I think I am doing it as a good husband.....more later...just doing some dairy free cookies and muffins for DD cake sale at school tomorrow...she has allegies and will be very pleased when she wakes up

[IsGraceAvailable]

WOW, TD, you sure do your 'doing' well

Sorry to hear about your row. How do you do with listening??

[TDiddy]

IsGraceAvailable -thanks. room for improvement on listening! Like really listening!

[TDiddy]

I have 7 siblings and I was number 5. YOu have to dive in to get a word in so altho' I have worked on this I am not the best in the area...

[Kiwiinkits]

I'm not going to defend my position - I don't know the OP and her situation well enough to go down in flames about it. It was just a suggestion for her to try. If she doesn't want to try, and is instead seeking to get out of her marriage, that's her choice. In my experience though, kindness gets repaid with more kindness. Love, respect and gratitude gets repaid with the same. Loving doesn't make you weak; it makes you strong. And it makes others around you strong, too.

Often women feel like we get taken advantage of because we are insufficiently assertive to state clearly what we want from our men. Instead we expect them to read our minds and then get disappointed and passive aggressive when they don't pull through (I'm not saying that this description fits you necessarily OP). Similarly, breakdowns in communication happen simply because we fail to think about how our actions (or lack thereof) will be percieved and processed by our partners. That's all.

I hope you are okay OP.

[TDiddy]

@Often women feel like we get taken advantage of because we are insufficiently assertive to state clearly what we want from our men.@

Yes, Kiwiinkits - when we first got married, I hadn't worked out that I needed to vaccuum or clean bathrooms or anything like that. I had had cleaners growing up and bedders at university. Eventually DW and I rowed and he told me that I wasn't pulling my weight but it took her a several months...now I am very well trained...as she puts it @well trained for the second wife@..

[TDiddy]

Craftynap - are you on the mend now?

[TDiddy]

Egg free, dairy free, wheat free choc-chip cookies done now..very proud

[IsGraceAvailable]

With the usual apologies for diversion, can I just add a bit about listening? Alongside my family's well-documented crappiness, it was a 'debating' family. Worked well for me; I was head of my school debating team and still, to this day, have to be shouted down when I'm running away with a topic. (Oh, you noticed?!?)

But. Like yours, TD, mine was a middling-large family. Conversation was either formalised ("What's your contribution, Grace?") or a matter of saying it, loud and fast. In early adulthood, I didn't notice any difference. What passed for conversation was, in fact, a series of statements by various people. You know the kind of thing: "Did you see XYZ on the news?" -> "Yes, I think ABC" -> "Well, I told you DFE" -> etc.

Embarrassingly, my listening skills were improved by sales training (OK, it was very good sales training). For the first time, I learned the power of hearing what the ohter party wanted to share. I learned to ask leading questions, and I learned what empathy means. Years of debating won me a couple of medals, but it never taught me to exchange thoughts in conversation. It absolutely hadn't taught me to respect & understand the complex, and unique, well of ideas & feelings within every individual.

I followed up with a primer course in counselling - it was an option paid for by my employers, so as to get a better idea of the drivers in human behaviour. It also introduced subtler concepts of communication, from tone of voice to body language and eye movements. Fascinating stuff.

I've chosen to try & extend this skillset: most obviously because I want to compensate for my weird upbringing, and also because it's an endlessly engaging subject. The object of the sales training, though never stated so baldly, was to control an interaction. My independent studies were more about gaining depth of connection, so as to enjoy the fluid exchange of thoughts & feelings that (nearly) all humans are built for - but often gets forgotten.

It's by no means a female thing, though Western societies tend to socialise males away from it (my debating was lauded as "not like a girl"). If there is a point to this very long post, it's that communication can be LEARNED - and learned easily, for we were (nearly) all born with the appropriate wiring.

[TDiddy]

Very interesting. All the pyscho tests say that I have much empathy and good with people and good team player ....I find it hard not to jump in and progress the conversation....but I am improving and I asked my team for feedback on this and they didn't notice nearly as much as my DW how bad I am in this area!!

Waiting to hear update from OP

[IsGraceAvailable]

TD, I've got to make a gluten-free, vegan, posh birthday cake next month. My efforts so far taste nice but have the texture of cold semolina! Any pointers?

Diversion apology x#. Promise I'll stop now ...

[TDiddy]

You can buy a cheat mixture from Sainsburys...Mrs Crible's muffin and sponge mix...reliable results

I have a recipee book but results are more variable

[TDiddy]

So we aren't divorcing then..I understand..not tonight anyway