Unhappy in my marriage - DH emotionally detached

[wonderingifthisisit]

I really could do with some advice about my marriage (have namechanged). DH and I have been together for 12 years or so. We have two lovely children. We were reasonably happy for the first few years, but as things have got more stressful and complicated following children, our relationship has steadily deteriorated.

Basically, we've always just done our own thing and paid little attention to our relationship. And while this worked for a long time, I've come to understand that it isn't really enough to sustain a marriage - and that I want and need more commitment, support and love. But DH is happy with things as they are (other than wishing there was a bit more sex, but I don't feel particuarly interested when I am ignored the rest of the time). He agrees that he isn't particularly emotional, but is very happy with himself, doesn't want to change, and thinks that emotional men are a bit weak. And he won't change. And resents the implication that he should.

I forced him to go to Relate. And within the first session the counsellor had reached the same point as me - that he's essentially emotionally detached, but happy to be so and unwilling to change. And that I am probably a bit detached too, which is why we got along together for as long as we did, but that I have changed over the years and following the kids, and am now looking for more from him.

We have sex maybe 3 times a month but otherwise there is no intimacy, no hugs, kisses, no 'I loves you's. When pushed, DH will say 'of course I love you' and says he respects me enormously. But there is no evidence of this love. There used to be more, but since the kids and him getting preoccupied with work and study, this is just not a priority for him.

He has shown me over and over again that whenever I really need him, he retreats and gets consumed with his own thoughts and activities. He gets overwelmed, cannot provide support, and becomes entirely self-centered. Which I forget when life is just bubbling along normally and I don't particularly need help and love. But remember again when I turn for him and he's emotionally not there. So I just do everything myself. And I'm tired of not being looked after in any aspect of my life.

He says he likes talking to me, but never organises anything for us to do together or expresses any particular interest in us being together. We have babysitters freely available, but I have to make all the effort. I can expect little/no effort for birthdays. I've tried date nights etc. I had to force him to go away for our anniversary. And we had a better time when we did our own thing while we were away.

We can't agree on basic stuff like where to live, because we are really two people living separate lives in the same house - which is exactly how he wants it. ie.e unaffected by the other person.

Now we just find it harder to be together. We find it easier to do things alone with the kids, because otherwise we bicker in the weekends. We even take the kids away on holiday alone because we don't really want to be together. Earlier in the month he was away for work for a week and neither of us missed the other in the slightest (although obviously he missed the kids).

Which leaves me with an otherwise decent man who is a good father to our children, reliable and honest, and who I can have a laugh with and interesting conversations - but who will never wrap his arms around and adore me, and who isn't there when I really need him.

There's no hope is there? He's also disconnected from his mother (politeness, but nothing more which drives her insane) and from what I gather all previous relationships ended with girlfriends getting similary frustrated and angry with his inability to connect.

I've been depressed, angry and miserable about this for 3 years or so, and can't bear much more of it - it's a very lonely place -but don't want to walk away without really feeling like I tried my best.

Anyone else had experience of this?

[MadMadamMim]

Mainly I feel relieved that we are talking. He stayed after bringing the boys home. Funnily enough, I too have been wondering if this is something I've been doing wrong, and wondering if I caused all this.
He's adamant that it's not me - that it's him. It still felt like I did all the talking, (I initiated the conversation) but he was a bit more open. He said he hasn't had a lot of chances to think, that he has missed me, but he doesn't want to mess me around so doesn't want to come back yet. I told him that if it IS that he's not in love with me anymore, then he needs to tell me, not pretend he does so as not to upset me. So far I've still to get a straight answer from him!
I've told him that if he does come home, I want a lot of things to change. And I've spelt those things out to him, so he knows what I want from our relationship. I feel like now that he knows, he can decide whether he wants to come home.
On the plus side, he has been investigating a weekend away for the both of us - which is something that he wouldn't have done before. I don't think it will be a magic wand, but it's nice to know he's thinking about me.
I think one of the reasons I've let this go on so long was it seemed selfish and spoilt to sort of cry "I want to feel cherished!" But in reality I think that's what everyone deserves isn't it? We could all just go along as we are, thinking we're doing the best for our kids, but really they need Dads who want to be part of our family, with all of us.

[ItsGraceAgain]

He's been investigating a weekend away? MMM, dare I suggest your expectations have tumbled a little low? Isn't it quite likely his mum's suggested this to him? By the sound of it, he's even struggling to wrap his head around how that works ...

Your last sentence is spot-on. Yes, you deserve to be cherished. If push comes to shove, it's better to be free to cherish yourself and your children. It's not good for any family to have an emotional black hole lurking around the house.

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

LaDietrich & Chandra
I'm finding your words very encouraging. It's my birthday soon and I'll be 45. I distinctly remember feeling much the same this time last year as I do today, and saying to myself "I'll ask for a separation after the summer" but I didn't. I can't carry on wasting my life like this. It's not even that I want to find someone else right now, although that would be nice eventually, it's that I just want to be happy.

So many things you've said strike such a chord with me. I also feel as if I'm choking on a huge ball of resentment building up inside me - I sometimes have dreams where I'm screaming my head off at him (not something I'd ever do in RL) and he's just standing there looking at me with his cold-fish expression.

Also the thing about the low expectations is so true - my H is very controlling and actually quite emotionally bullying. As a result my self-esteem has been eroded over the years and I've ended up feeling that this is all I deserve. The usual justifications to myself - "well, it's not so bad really", "he works hard", "he doesn't drink/womanise/gamble". I've spoken to a couple of friends about this recently and both have told me that it definitely ISN'T good enough and that I should make him
leave.

My H doesn't even acknowledge that there's anything very wrong, and he won't go to speak to a counsellor. So that doesn't leave me with any other options. I think with a lot of us in this situation, one's self-esteem and confidence are at a low level anyway, and it makes it difficult to firstly make the decision and secondly to follow through with it.

Just seeing that other MNers have been there and done it is very encouraging though.

[LaDietrich]

froginajacuzzi - it simply ISN'T enough. It just isn't. Your requirements are not unreasonable within the contect of a long term relationship. I ended up thinking for a long time that the problems were all with me. As I said my expectations had dropped so low and I ony realised this when they actually couldn't go any lower. Then (and with the help of my wonderful GP and an NHS therapist as well as one or two very cose frineds and my sister who I finally confided in)I started to build p self esteem up again and realised my requirements were totally normal. It still took a long time and much MUCH soul searching. But when I turned 40 I promised myself I'd not finish the year without things either getting better or him moving out. He, like your DP, refused to go to counselling or to accept there was a real problem. His only suggestion ever was that we should just "wait and see" (as we had been doing for years. I am now SO glad I finally got the courage to say NO, that that simply wasn't good enough. I can safely say I am finally out from under his influence and it feels DAMN GOOD. If it feels so wrong to you (and it sounds it to me, but I'm only an internet stranger - only YOU know - but you need to believe in yourself) then you can do it too.

I sincerely wish all women in this situation the best of luck. It's a shitty place to be and it erodes everything that was ever good about a relationship imo.

[toja555]

I can sadly join you, girls. I am only in relationship for 3 years, but have been feeling the same for while. Unfortunately (or fortunately), we have one child and another on the way, so not the best moment to make hard decisions. My DH has never been very affectionate, but now is becoming distant and emotionally detached. I did not want to be a controlling wife, so I somehow allowed him to shift away from me and family by taking most of the duties. Surprisingly, I recently read a survey results, that families where wife is more demanding and controlling, divorce less. I am still trying to work it out, by asking DH to get involve in family matters, but not sure if his emotions will ever come back. We cannot even speak normally anymore. Each time I try to discuss something, he sees it as an argument. The problem might be that he grew up without parents (they died early) and his siblings were shared by different relatives, so he probably never saw what is normal communication in family?.
At the moment I am thinking that I will try my best for the sake of my children, hopefully I will last until they grow up (still 18 years to go), and then divorce/separate in a bid to lead our own lives. Or just silently stay together and do our own things. Sounds sad, but.. that?s life..

[Skollie]

Yet another sister in the same situation, I´m afraid. Not so far down the line as to consider leaving yet. Husband is still a good father to our 2 and 4 yr olds and could not face the hurt it would cause them to separate. Plus I live in his country (not mine) with a small support base (only been here 3 years) and we couldn´t manage financially, so leaving ain´t an option right now!
To get to my point (ahem, yes there IS one, eventually...sorry!), I am starting to think that perhaps the vast majority of relationships end up this way! I am hoping here that you will all shout me down for being wrong.....yes, it all started off well and he was wonderful at 1st, etc etc, but once the kiddies arrived, he changed into another far less pleasant person (moody, angry, hyper-sensitive, blah blah)....I feel cheated! This isn´t the man I promised to love forever in sickness, health and all that! How do you know that if you find somebody else, it won´t just end up exactly the same after the silver lining becomes tarnished?
I hate being a pessimist, but are there REALLY any good men out there?

[wonderingifthisisit]

toja555 - so sorry you're feeling like this too. Especially while pregnant. That sounds so tough. My DH's family background is definitely a contributing factor for us. I don't think he has ever seen a healthy relationship in action, and truly has no idea what I mean when I talk about what's missing/wrong with ours and why it won't be enough to sustain a marriage over time.

Skollie - I do wonder that too about men. Except my Dad is lovely and kind and generous with my mother. And I do have friends that adore their husbands, and are adored back. And I read threads like the one yesterday about marriage being the primary relationship in a family, and I remember again that not everyone just has to accept a lack of love just because they got married!

As for me, I was so clear in my mind earlier in the week, but am doubting myself again. I went to counselling (alone) and it was just so obvious that this is hopeless. And that I need to end it. And then DH and I talked again and agreed we need a path to separate (although, again, he's not quite sure why, but not seemingly not bothered either way). But then we're okay interacting throughout the week, and we've had a few laughs and it's nice to delight in the kids together, and what I'm doing just seems so, well, frivolous really. Splitting up because I'm not adored? It makes me seem like I'm petulant child. It's not terrible here, and he's not a bad person. But then I think of spending the rest of my life with him and know I can't. And that we wouldn't - I know without a doubt that we would never grow old together even if we can get through the next 15 years. We'd just have nothing left between us then.

But I still can't quite bring myself to do it right now, for reasons that seem petty and selfish while the kids are so little and get so much from having him in the house every day. I can't bear the thought of staying together for the kids for years, but is there something in the idea of staying until they're a little bit older? I worry for the 3 year old in particular. Time is such a hazy concept, and while my 6 year old could wait a couple of days to see Dad or talk on the phone, I do think the daily interaction might matter more to a 3 year old. Any thoughts?

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

Wondering I think changing your mind about it every week if not every day is par for the course with this kind of thing. I find it the same. I don't know if one ever has an "a-ha" moment - I think it's more like a gradual realisation until the day comes when you know you would be happier on your own. My friend, who is now finally divorcing, told me it took her 4 years to get around to it from the time she made the decision shortly after her youngest DD was born, and the fact that her DC were very young was a factor in postponing the inevitable even althouh her stbxH wasn't a very good dad.

Your DH seems to be good with the kids, though. Just from my personal pov, I think very little kids need their dad to be around on a more permanent basis (although there are many that don't have that and still cope well). Once they're at school their lives start expanding and they're better able to grasp things rationally.
That's just my opinion though. I think kids are always sad when their parents split up, no matter what age they are and that's something we have to be prepared for when the time comes.

[ItsGraceAgain]

< DH and I talked again and agreed we need a path to separate (although, again, he's not quite sure why, but not seemingly not bothered either way >

Dear god, that's so sad! Honestly, you deserve a life in which the big things matter

[Skollie]

WONDERING: Good to know that a few good men may well exist, thanks! I know it´s often criticised to "stay together for the sake of the kids" but I do think with very little ones it can be the right thing in many cases. I know it is in mine: Their dad went away for a weekend...aaahh, bliss ...and they were very upset, particularly the 4 year old who was convinced Daddy would forget to come back and was living somewhere else! I wouldn´t want to imagine dealing with all your own awful emotions with a break up AND having to put on a happy face for distraught children who don´t understand...aaarrrggghhh!
I know what you mean by not seeing yourselves growing old together but I have a vague hope that he may mellow and improve with age (ha ha). Otherwise when the kids leave home, so do I....whoopeeee!

[wheresmypaddle]

Wondering, I haven't read whole thread (as I am supposed to be working ), but I will do so later.

I just wanted to briefly tell you that I have a 3yo DS and DP (his Daddy) and I split up about a month ago. DS is very close to DP and they love being together, but EXDP was far from a perfect partner and when I tackled him about things needing to change, he left (cutting a long story short ).

Its been really tough, but the effect on DS has not been nearly as bad as expected. We have told him that Daddy has gone to stay with uncle XXXXX. He hasn't asked for any more information. DS misses his Daddy and does ask for him but actually he is doing fine. If he asks where Daddy is I tell him the truth, we talk about Daddy all the time and I let him know when he will next see Daddy. EXDP has seen him 2 or three times a week and knows he is welcome to see DS whenever he can.

Yesterday DS cried for his Daddy, I thought me heart would break- then he started to cry for his cousin, then Peppa Pig . I realised its maybe me that misses him most, and that DS is probably coping just fine.

I am not saying its a good or bad idea to split up as far as DCs are concerned- in fact I would have wanted DP to stay if at all possible. I am just saying that your 3yo may cope better than you expect.

Must dash- back to work, will check in later.

[TDiddy]

Sorry to hear. Seems a real shame. I always regret not urging two really good friends -who drifted apart and were both stubborn about "working at it" - to put the effort in to repair things. 12 years on I think they both wished they had although they have moved on. How old are you both if you don't mind me asking?

[scodgie]

Life's too short, think of yourself for once and happiness will follow. This happiness will in turn make your children happier. Don't get to 50 and have regrets.

[TheFutureMrsClooney]

Scodgie - well said.

I've lived like the OP for 27 years and have now realised how much energy I've wasted trying to work on a dead marriage to a man who refuses to engage.

I've seen a solicitor, put the house on the market (still with no input from him) and people keep asking me why I seem so happy! I can't say it's not a strain doing this with his passive resistance, but I'm amazed how strong I feel.

My only regret is I didn't do this earlier. The past five years I have been effectively a single parent - he doesn't come anywhere with us, barely speaks to us etc. Both my girls have asked how much longer we have to live like this - I feel much more optimistic about life now.

[AlderTree]

Really want to say that anyone who genuinely suspects that their other half has an undiagnosed autistic spectrum condition really needs to get clued up on the subject and find a good support group to help them. You really are not alone. Many families whose children are diagnosed go on to realise the fathers are similar to others who have a diagnosis. There are plenty of books and internet sites that will help give an insight into the asperger mind.

Obviously some cases here are genuinely that of disinterested man who needs a shake up about his priorities. If your relationship has some good qualities and actually you don't want to go down the divorce/separation route it might be a way forward.

[shebear]

Hello everyone - I came on MN tonight as I'm driving myself mad with exactly the same thoughts about my DP - unengaged and detached sums him up nicely. We have no children but I have two grown up daughters. I'm worrying and wondering how I can broach the fact that I'm not happy. Like another post, we have great interesting conversations but never about our relationship or finance etc. I need someone to say it will it be worth it at 58 to split yet again(I'm a serial poor chooser of men) and what about our lovely flat and new decking I had put in last year! I will follow this thread with interest.

[TDiddy]

I think that spending time with other couples can be therapy for your own realtionship as :

1)you realise that most couples have little issues to deal with

2)you see more of the positive side of your DP

3)you can enjoy the positive side of a collection of different people rather than just stare at fault lines of your own relationship

[Katisha]

Shebear I saw this in the Times today.

[fdh]

The thing is, and this doesn't help anyone, but explains a lot, 500 years ago we had much stronger support networks in the villages we lived in. Now we are scattered hither and thither and trivial things like babysitting become a major issue (the lack of which is helping to kill my marriage). The internet helps a lot but it's hardly the same thing as being able to talk face to face with your sister/sister-in-law/mother/whoever.

You might ask what this has to do with anything... we are exactly the same people as 500 years ago - evolution hasn't done diddly squat in that short time.

So, take it from me, a fairly nerdy guy who could be your husband (except that I hope I don't run and hide when my DW needs support, but maybe I do - she wouldn't tell me it was a problem until it was too late), your husband isn't a freak, he's a fairly normal guy. We don't do emotional support that well. We make kites, fix things, obsess about our wives (but don't let them know about it).

At least for me, I think it's reversible. I will engage more, but I'm not going to sit and watch Come Dine With Me. We are different people and we have to accept there's a disconnect and find some common ground. Your DH, like me, may simply be stuck in a testosterone fueled rut. If you want emotional support you'll have to talk to him and spell things out in simple language. My wife doesn't care or understand about my latest dilemma with the battery charger, but I live with that.

[TDiddy]

yes, I recognised some aspects of your DH in myself. I do the supermarket shopping, empty the bins, cut the grass, get rid of wasps and spiders, get for the children during the night and the morning, make their pack lunches every morning, cook dinner for them in advance....practical man stuff....it's my way.

But I suspect that I would have scored more credits if I did more candle light dinners and less of the grunge.

I think both are required but for many men, the former comes easier.

[TDiddy]

what sort of upbringing did your DH have? How did he relate to parents vice versa?

[wonderingifthisisit]

Thanks again Grace and Frog for your support - I too think that things like this should matter.

Thanks for all the differing views of the impact on separation on very young children. Much to think about. Still not sure how I feel about that aspect. I don't want this forever and I do feel life is too short for this indifference. But I do have the kids to think of, and I suspect their needs might be almost opposite to mine right at this point in their development.

Alder - I really don't think he's on the autistic spectrum, but thanks for the advice. I'd say he would fall into your latter category ("disinterested man who needs a shake up about his priorities").

Theres some good points here about men being less emotional/more practical overall. However, I think this is more than that and essentially boils down to a lack of love, and different expectations about what a marriage is and should be.

TDiddy - we're both late 30s. DH's parents divorced when he was about 6 (he doesn't really know when, and never thought to ask ) and he has a very poor relationship with his mother - who is difficult and not particularly emotionally mature either. He had a good relationship with his father, but from what I can gather, he was mainly a "good time" part-time dad. He died shortly before we met. His dad seems to have passed on a few key messages about how to relate to women based on their shortlived marriage - be polite, don't upset them, definitely don't argue - and neither parent went on to provide a good example of a positive relationship for DH to see. Helpful, eh?

We've just had another discussion after a fairly quiet week. The resentment and lack of love on both sides is fairly entrenched. But I would still think it was worth our while trying if not for the fact that he says he doesn't even understand what I mean when I talk about what a marriage should be.

I do know that I need to be happy in myself, but I can take care of all the practical aspects in my life. I have a good job, career plans, a wonderful family, strong friends, interests etc. But I want more. Am I being overly romantic? Am I expecting a marriage to be too important?

In my mind I can imagine it's nice to look forward to seeing someone, to want someone to look forward to you coming in the door, to want to be together, and to want to form a plan for a life together. But he thinks we should just be two independent happy people, who interact and have interests that sometimes overlap. And that I shouldn't impinge upon what he's doing or wants to do, and likewise he won't stop me. And he thinks that is being supportive. He says he doesn't need anything from me - and that should be seen as a good thing. And he doesn't want me to need anything from him. But I think needing is good, right?

Oh, and then says he doesn't know what love is anyway. Wish he'd told me that before we married.

[TDiddy]

I think that you are right about needing to look at your DP and think, I fancy you! Not the same as puppy love but I think it is important. I think that it would be a nice balance for both of you to have some independence but that should also work to make your interaction more pleasant and positive.

I think that your husband has some deep sadness about his childhood that needs to be addressed. Perhaps you should explore that with him and take the focus away from your marriage. He perhaps deep down resents the coldness/harshness of his childhood. His current behaviour is in some way trying to normalise his childhood and/or getting his own back IYWIM.

[TDiddy]

The only other thing that I can suggest is if you started playing some sport together: tennis, squash, badminton, jogging, walking to help with the (re)bonding.

By the way, nothing wrong with you or your expectations; you sound very pleasant and emotionally intelligent. Your DH needs help with his emotions.

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

It's very interesting to get male opinions on this. I'm sure I read somewhere that women have the equivalent of an 8-lane highway, neurologically speaking, to process feelings and emotions, whereas men have the equivalent of a B-road. Can't deny that there are differences tho.

Wondering I completely agree that in your case, it does appear to go further than can be explained by saying "men are just like that". The fact that you are so unhappy and your H isn't prepared to meet you halfway speaks volumes. I think each couple develops their own set of expectations about married life, what will work for them, what won't, but they should at least be on the same page. Your and your H's expectations appear to differ dramatically, and if it isn't good enough for you, then it isn't good enough, period.

I'm not very romantic, but I also believe that the marital relationship should be special, not just an amicable co-existence. Otherwise what's the point? On the plus side, you two would probably make great co-parents. Whether to wait until the DC are older is a difficult decision. My stb-divorced friend's DC are 6 and 9 and they have coped really well. There were a few hard weeks, and the stbxH isn't being very nice about anything, but the kids are resilient and are just getting on with their own lives.

In your original post, you said that you were "reasonably" happy in the first few years. So even at the beginning do you think you were in love? If your H is saying he doesn't know what love is, then he has probably never been in love, I'm sorry to say. Not with you, and maybe not with anyone. I've fallen in love a couple of times in my life (and yes, once with my DH) and there's no way you would not know it once you've been through it!

It sounds like you have really tried, with talking and going to Relate but are still pretty much left in the same situation as before. I think the only decision left to you now is whether to separate now or later.

I'm going to start going to Relate next week (on my own). My H has finally woken up to the fact that I'm really, really unhappy this week as a result of an incredibly uncaring thing he did earlier, and is trying to make amends in his own clumsy way (even brought me a cup of tea in bed this morning!), so I think maybe there is some hope. I've got to try, anyway...