Unhappy in my marriage - DH emotionally detached

[wonderingifthisisit]

I really could do with some advice about my marriage (have namechanged). DH and I have been together for 12 years or so. We have two lovely children. We were reasonably happy for the first few years, but as things have got more stressful and complicated following children, our relationship has steadily deteriorated.

Basically, we've always just done our own thing and paid little attention to our relationship. And while this worked for a long time, I've come to understand that it isn't really enough to sustain a marriage - and that I want and need more commitment, support and love. But DH is happy with things as they are (other than wishing there was a bit more sex, but I don't feel particuarly interested when I am ignored the rest of the time). He agrees that he isn't particularly emotional, but is very happy with himself, doesn't want to change, and thinks that emotional men are a bit weak. And he won't change. And resents the implication that he should.

I forced him to go to Relate. And within the first session the counsellor had reached the same point as me - that he's essentially emotionally detached, but happy to be so and unwilling to change. And that I am probably a bit detached too, which is why we got along together for as long as we did, but that I have changed over the years and following the kids, and am now looking for more from him.

We have sex maybe 3 times a month but otherwise there is no intimacy, no hugs, kisses, no 'I loves you's. When pushed, DH will say 'of course I love you' and says he respects me enormously. But there is no evidence of this love. There used to be more, but since the kids and him getting preoccupied with work and study, this is just not a priority for him.

He has shown me over and over again that whenever I really need him, he retreats and gets consumed with his own thoughts and activities. He gets overwelmed, cannot provide support, and becomes entirely self-centered. Which I forget when life is just bubbling along normally and I don't particularly need help and love. But remember again when I turn for him and he's emotionally not there. So I just do everything myself. And I'm tired of not being looked after in any aspect of my life.

He says he likes talking to me, but never organises anything for us to do together or expresses any particular interest in us being together. We have babysitters freely available, but I have to make all the effort. I can expect little/no effort for birthdays. I've tried date nights etc. I had to force him to go away for our anniversary. And we had a better time when we did our own thing while we were away.

We can't agree on basic stuff like where to live, because we are really two people living separate lives in the same house - which is exactly how he wants it. ie.e unaffected by the other person.

Now we just find it harder to be together. We find it easier to do things alone with the kids, because otherwise we bicker in the weekends. We even take the kids away on holiday alone because we don't really want to be together. Earlier in the month he was away for work for a week and neither of us missed the other in the slightest (although obviously he missed the kids).

Which leaves me with an otherwise decent man who is a good father to our children, reliable and honest, and who I can have a laugh with and interesting conversations - but who will never wrap his arms around and adore me, and who isn't there when I really need him.

There's no hope is there? He's also disconnected from his mother (politeness, but nothing more which drives her insane) and from what I gather all previous relationships ended with girlfriends getting similary frustrated and angry with his inability to connect.

I've been depressed, angry and miserable about this for 3 years or so, and can't bear much more of it - it's a very lonely place -but don't want to walk away without really feeling like I tried my best.

Anyone else had experience of this?

[wonderingifthisisit]

TDiddy - he doesn't want to be explore his emotions. He likes himself as he is and can't see what benefit being "more emotional" would bring. He can only see it as effort, and thinks he would fail and then I would nag more. He agrees his childhood wasn't perfect, but not horrific and certainly not worth picking over and analysing. We're adults now and should just move on.

And he isn't particularly interested in us reconnecting, unless I pick something he was going to do anyway. ie. I'm making all the effort again, and he's just being him and he doesn't mind if I join in. I'd feel kind of pathetic tagging along under those circumstances. In fact I'm starting to feel fairly pathetic begging to be loved.

Thanks for letting me know my expectations don't sound wildly over the top. I'm actually not that emotionally intelligent myself - but I'm working on it!

[TDiddy]

Wondering- I do think that your husband is having a deep sulk with life.

Christ! Does he have any close male friends?

[wonderingifthisisit]

Sorry frog - crossposted with you there.

Were we ever in love? Honestly, I think not really, but neither of us had been before so there wasn't really anything to compare it with. It was the easiest and most comfortable we had been with another persion.
We were happy enough and had been together about a couple of years so getting married seemed like the next step. Marriage was his idea. I knew even then that we weren't a great love affair but it seemed enough. Although, and I cringe at the memory, he didn't even mention me in his speech at our wedding, which made me wince and worry, but I tried not to think about it and decided that was just "us" and we were still fine. And, despite it sounding dreadful, we were okay for another few years after that. Not ecstatic but okay.

On the up side, you're right about us probably co-parenting well. Essentially that's what we're doing now, and I would expect that to continue. I do now just need to work out timing and practical aspects and how to deal with the children.

Good luck for your Relate appointment. I hope it goes well. So pleased to hear your H is starting to see what's happening - I'm hopeful for you that better times lie ahead.

[wonderingifthisisit]

I don't know about a sulk with life, but it's an interesting theory. However, he's actually quite happy. And increasingly so the more he pursues only his interests. I'm the unhappy one.

He does have several good mates and he's very close to his brother. Well as close aa he can be. They don't tend to talk about stuff like this, but as he reminds me, they're not women.

But he has talked them about he and I over the past couple of weeks - mainly because I told him he needs to - and they have all told him he's pretty much emotionally stunted and needs to pick it up. This has surprised him but he's written it off as nonsense and poor advice which he has no intention of following.

[TDiddy]

Finding this frustrating just thinking about it....if only he could show a little desire, willing to fight for the marriage then I think it would send a signal to you and rekindle a virtuous circle.

I am struggling to find a strategies ...try this for a few weeks: Tell him that you will not hold grudge on his perspective of marriage. Tell him that you will go for his unromantic notion of marriage if he allowed you to be affectionate self. Then show him unconditional affection and see what happens....I think that he doesn't know/isn't used to being loved.

Alternatively set up an agreement with him whereby one week you lived how he wanted to and the other week you lived how you want to.

Or better ask him to list the the three things that he most wants from family life and you list your three. You then agree to try to give each other top three things attention.

But it isn't healthy if you start coming across as "begging for his attention"; clearly

[TDiddy]

with the mutual top three list you have to return to the list periodically, weekly and then monthly. A bit like a business review . Let's call the "marriage balance sheet"

[TDiddy]

Ask him whether he wants you both to go to your graves not having enjoyed each other

[TDiddy]

Write him a letter.

I think the problem is that you don't have a real partnership of interdependency. A bit unusual for him to be saying "respect" rather than "love".

If you stay together then you must ensure that you devise a survival strategy such as having lots of friends, playing sport, and generally being jolly. Otherwise this will suck the life out of you.

best regards

[wonderingifthisisit]

Thanks for all the good suggestions TDiddy. I hadn't thought about approaching it that way - I'll give them serious thought.

However, he doesn't want a partnership of interdependence. When I've used that word he thinks that sounds terrible and needy and like somehow its very wrong. He thinks I have the wrong idea about what marriage should be. Not sure where to go with that.

[ItsGraceAgain]

I'm also finding this frustrating, though perhaps in a different way than TDiddy. The man sounds exactly like a stuffed-shirt Victorian paterfamilias. As long as he was convinced that God, Right and the Queen were on his side (and nothing could shake his conviction that they were), his wife and children should be quiet, grateful and dutiful. Any minute now he'll be shipping you off to a 'sanitarium' in the country to be cured of your inconvenient emotions!

Despite TDiddy's best intentions, I can't help feeling you only have 3 choices:
1] Live a two-dimensional life, and be grateful that your headstone will say "Dutiful Wife".
2] Settle for 2-and-a-half dimensions, filling your own world with colour and life, but existing side-by-side with His Lordship.
3] Ditch The Shadow and let the sunshine in.

I seriously doubt he'll notice the difference. He can hire a housekeeper.

[TDiddy]

ItsGrace - you sum things up well

[ItsGraceAgain]

Thank you In this case, I wish it weren't so!

[mophead5]

I think it all boils down to noe thing.
is he a good father? Does he want to spend time with his kids? Does he show them love and affection or a complete lack of interest in them as well as you?

If the latter, then leave.
If the former then you have to try to get him to show you the same affection that he shows them.

[ThatVikRinA22]

am marking this thread for if i ever pluck up courage to show DH the op.

[Annie1996]

OMG! I am new to this website and was going to post a thread on unhappiness in my marriage and yours mirrors mine. i too have been married for about 12 years now. We have 3 children. In the early years i didn't notice all this but now the children are older (the youngest has started school) I am realising I need more in my relationship. My H is very 'emotionally detached' and will not budge. He won't even go see a counsellor. The children are now 13, 10 and 5 and I want to leave. He is financially responsible for us as I am am not working. But I have just finished a course and will be looking for work. I am so unhappy with my life that I am beginning to suffer mood swings and depression - sometimes losing it with the kids also which of course I know is damaging.

[TDiddy]

Annie1996 - Sorry to hear. looks like there are a lot of "emotionally stubborn" men out there.

Are you in your 30s /40s? I ask because I am also thinking that is the time when there is a lot going on in the marriage: children, man's sexual enjoyment could start to decline, money matters, middle life (aging) crisis....

So we are bound to notice the fault lines then.

You are doing the right thing by becoming more financially independent. I think it is worth doing the same in terms of "enjoyment" ....don't completely rely on your bloke for fun and joy!

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

ItsGrace I also loved your post - really gets cuts to the chase. I've crossed option 1 from my list, so now left deciding between 2 and 3

TDiddy you raise some very interesting points and ideas. My H and I are in our 40s and I definitely think there's a large element of mid-life crisis/angst going on - not just him but me also. You get to a point and realise that at least half of your life is over, and think to yourself "is this as good as it gets?"

I think your ideas would work IF the OP's H was willing to come to the party, and from what's been posted it would appear that he's very happy with the way he is. Change requires a huge effort of will, and I don't see even a little bit of willingness on his part. My H is similarly not willing to change, and becomes very sulky and resentful if I make suggestions about counselling etc.
I think his attitudes are to a large measure as a result of his very dysnfunctional childhood. His parents' marriage was beyond terrible. But I ask myself, do I have to carry his baggage around because he won't deal with it? I really have tried, and will continue trying for a little while yet but I'm reaching the end of my patience tbh.

[TDiddy]

FrogInAJacuzzi - yes, if DP doesn't want to change then that leaves you with a stark choice....unless you go for the option of shock treatment

[wonderingifthisisit]

I laughed at your description ItsGrace of my DH as "a stuffed-shirt Victorian paterfamilias." I had never thought about him that way, but I think you may be right. He is thoroughly modern in many ways, but he really does want both me and the kids to be quiet (he would LOVE it if I said I was heading off to a sanitarium to sort out my emotions. Seriously).

And, and this is a constant source of argument, his main priority in life is to ensure the children's financial future is secure - he wants to leave them land and wealth. This ranks well above my future financial security, and his even, and certainly well above any of our current or intermediate needs. It's like living in a Jane Austin novel. He won't budge on this - despite the fact that I think the best thing we could do for our children is to bring them up in a loving and stable family, and the fact that they would have always been fine (we have enough money, good jobs, steady savings, and they will have a good education). And I think we have a right to a decent and joy filled life too. So the resentment grows because we can't agree on a shared view of our life together.

mophead - he is a good father. But I'm not sure I can make him show me affection. He doesn't see the point of it himself. And given I do everything else, I get fairly irritated with the thought that I also have to tell him how and when to love me. But I probably do need to rise above that and try some of the things TDiddy suggests.

Like Frog, I'm going back and forth between 2 and 3 on the list. I'm not settling for 1, but I've been trying to get by with 2 and the lack of care and tenderness in my life has left me drained.

[Rosypose]

Just wanted to offer hope and support. I too had the exact same marriage and 2 young kids. Tried for 5 years to turn it around but I finally made the decision a year ago to put an end to it. It was the best decision I have ever made, and wish I had done it years ago, although I probably wasn't ready.

Anyway just wanted to say that I spent years feeling lonely in a awful marriage, where he was a crap father as he was angry and miserable. Now I feel liberated and happy. He is a better father to the kids and the kids are happier as there is no fighting anymore. We have managed to co-parent apart so much better than we ever did together.

It is my proudest achievement that we have managed to affect a peaceful separation after so much anger. And we can actually talk as friends now that the hate has gone.

Good luck to you all xx

[TDiddy]

I am learning from this...there is a bit of me that priorities the children and their futures above all else...I hope that this isn't my DW's thread

[toja555]

I think OP that while now you are contemplating whether to go for separation or not, you are not ready to make this decision. Don?t push yourself to resolve it quickly. I believe you will now when you are ready (and at your emotional high to support yourself through).

I don't like the idea of divorce myself. Trying to push it far away at the moment. I divorced once and even when you think it is the right thing to do, it gives you emotional breakdown. I wonder why 2 detached people can't stay together (for sake of their children) and do their own thing?

I posted before that I have been having similar issues with my DH. I found one article that suits in my situation perfectly (here it is I have been trying to apply over the weekend and it gave us little improvements (maybe we are not hopeless?).

[HesterPrynne]

Wondering, I know exactly how you feel.

Like you I and my DH bumbled along for years thinking we were happy, and it's only been in the past few years that I realised that I had stopped even expecting emotional support from him in a crisis. He had been absent, emotionally and sometimes actually, from a string of awful events from my dad's death to our DD's meningitis.

It came to a head in January this year with another family incident with DD2 which I was left to deal with almost totally alone.

I demanded we start Relate and got a similar response you seem to have done - 'it's the way I am, you can't expect me to change. You shouldn't be relying on me for your happiness' etc, etc.

But just this weekend his attitude changed after he came across a series of emails I had sent to a friend, and thought I had deleted, frankly outlining just how unhappy I was, how my marriage was now basically unsustainable and that I intended to stick to my plan to leave once DD1 finished her GCSEs.

He actually cried, for the first time in our 20-year relationship, as he asked me about the emails. Although he admitted that there was nothing in them that I had not said to him directly, it was only seeing it in black and white and addressed to someone else he truly realised how miserable I was - that they weren't empty threats said just to annoy him.

It's still very early days, but something seems to have definitely shifted, the dynamic just feels different now and for the first time in years I'm optimistic about my marriage.

I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that maybe you have to break through in a similarly unexpected way. I think my H just accepted the cycle of our relationship would end in a row every six weeks or so, and had become so used to it, as I was still there the next day.

Without the emails I think I would have had to leave him before he would take me seriously - too really understand the depth of my feeling. Maybe you will need to do something as drastic.

[Scarlet88]

hi girls !! For what it's worth......here's my experience.........my h is always tired from a long week of work, but always finds the time to see his trainer and do all his own selfish stuff on Saturdays. I do EVERYTHING FOR OUR 6 MONTH OLD DAUGHTER !!

When I rarely leave her in his care, he mostly ignores her whilst watching TV + ironing his workshirts.

I don't need him for me personally, but I feel my daughter MAY POSSIBLY benefit from having a father figure.

The reason I don't divorce this self-obsessed ass?? =
1 I am not selling my house because he is a prick
2 I am not going out to work at a shitty job because he is a prick
3 I value being at home with my daughter when she is so little
4 He's not around very much, and I can always avoid him, by seeing my friends etc

IN SHORT, I'm not going to suffer unduly because he CHOOSES TO BEHAVE AS HE DOES. HIS LOSS......HIS MISTAKE and I am not going to pay the price for it. Far better that he be made to go to work and pay for his family!! WHICH IS HIS DUTY. Love to you all