Do you know any controlling (abusive?) women?

[FrostInMay]

It sounds a bit implausible but I have a friend (had what I thought was a friend) who has to control every tiny aspect of everything we do together. It's somehow not as immediately recognisable as, say, an abusive man in a romantic relationship although the dynamics are chillingly similar. The differences are extraordinary generosity and a lot of outward charitable, 'right on' sort of attitudes that are just so hideously far removed from her behaviour towards people. It looks as if she targets female friends who could be seen as vulnerable, either because they are recovering from mental illness or have left an abusive relationship or preferably both. Which sounds awful because surely you can be a person who is genuinely drawn to supporting other people without any sinister underlying motives?

How can you tell if someone is Mother Teresa but with some unfortunate control issues or if they are a domineering bully who is exceptionally skilled at reeling in victims through careful philanthropy? It is so difficult to describe. Grateful for any thoughts on this, I am (of course) a medium term regular who has namechanged for obvious reasons - almost 100% confident she is not a MumsNetter though.

Hi, I had a rescuer friend like this, I don't think it is all sinister though, I was in the vounerable state and she helped me and hindered me, however her help was better than the insufficent help from other sources, so I stayed in denial the whole time so that I could cope with what I had to.

My take on it, was that she actually meant well, and spoke a lot of wise words, the thing was, you could not disagree with her, and you were great as long as you did what she wanted you to or think how she wanted you to, in the end after a few sabotages she made in my life too many, I walked away. I do think it came as a shock to her, as she thought I would come running back and from what she said about another the walked and then later went back during their hiatus, she thinks you replace another with her to get over her as she put it, no dobut she will say the same about me, the thing is, I had counselling so did not need anyone to get over anyone anymore.

I think they do it to avoid the sadness in their lives, to feel they are helping, to have drama without it being them, to keep life from being boring that type of thing!

Thanks, it's helpful to know that someone else has had a similar experience! I'm not so sure my friend means well, or whether it makes any difference what her intentions are if the end results are so damaging. She is so extreme though, I don't think anyone would believe it.

It's hard to find good information about this behaviour in women, although all the material about abusive men fits.

do you want to elaborate on what has gone on frost?

Of course women can be controlling, dominating and bullies as much as men, the problem is that mostly we don't live with them, we live with men and as we don't live with them we are not as affected by them! Women can destroy your life in different ways to men, your social circle, your kids social network etc, they can be very damaging, lots of people have not come across such badness and some don't want to be the next target so they go along with it, it is old playground stuff and sad!

Have you looked on any men's self help sites?

Yes, sadly, and I'm related to her by marriage. She lacks empathy or boundaries and is self-absorbed, domineering, manipulative (uses her psychology degree to good effect there)and terrifyingly absolute: it's her way, or the highway. She cannot maintain relationships in any sphere for very long, except with one poor doormat friend who is completely co-dependent. Funny thing is that when you first meet her you only see the fun and the charm. V dangerous.

Yes, emotional abuse & gaslighting, etc have been used by women for centuries. There are loads of abusive women in Shakespeare. Incidentally, Mother Theresa was often accused of being controlling!

I also know someone exactly like this & I've distanced myself from her. She is also funny & charming but dangerously manipulative & loves "rescuing" people. She has now moved on to another victim - they always need someone to validate their behaviour. I happen to know the current victim is now also trying to distance herself. It's been a repeating pattern which shows no signs of abating even though the woman in question is in her late 40's.

Yup, people like this do exist. Women are just as capable of being vile, selfish, cruel and manipulative as men are (there are plenty of threads on here from people who have mothers who are narcissitic, or controlling, or bullies).

yes i know someone exactly like this and thank god i saw the light..but unfortunately alot of people just put up purely thru not appearing to seem rude tho they detest her..have told her to her face i might add as she stepped well and truly over the boundaries.. and if she's a MN-er then here's hoping that she realises it's her!(apologies for hijack but it's touched a nerve!)
it's not done out of genuine friendship/concern, but is disguised as such usually by someone with deep seated issues themselves such as a desire to please and be popular and in simple terms this person thrives on other's drama and sees themself as the hero/ine with all the solutions hoping for some kind of plaudits which somehow elevates them in other's eyes
unfortunately it's those at their lowest point who have these types seeking them out

I don't think I do.

I am not aware of knowing any controlling abusive men, either, apart from the husband of one woman I know very vaguely from school, who occasionally says things about him that rings alarm bells.

How would a woman who is a friend, rather than a partner, display controlling behaviour? Am genuinely interested.

I used to know someone who treated her DH like shit - screaming fits, manipulative, hitting, gas lighting, affairs etc. I often wondered why her DH didn't tell her to "fuck off" but after reading many a thread on Mumsnet about abusive DHs I can see that it really isn't that simple.

Most people, however, never got to see that side of her personality and thought she was great.

I have a revolting relative like this, she is foul and manipulative in the extreme.

If I wasn't related to her I would run a mile.

Bibbity - in my experience the controlling behaviour was that this woman would target people who she knew to be vulnerable (family, work issues etc) & then "rescue" them without actually being asked. In return she would expect unquestioning loyalty. You couldn't disagree with her over anything or she would have a toddler tantrum. She expects others to support her schemes regardless of their own opinions. If you don't then she says you are a traitor & untrustworthy & then bad mouths you behind your back. As, on the surface, she is funny & charismatic many people believe her venom but usually see the light eventually, although this can take a long time.

It's difficult to describe her behaviour, because the individual examples sound so petty - you also have to be under the same roof for a while to get the full effects. She seems really nice if you are out for a meal or having a chat on the telephone, except she never wants to just go for a meal or to theatre or cinema - you have to do what she thinks is helpful or good for you. It took me years to realise this. And she never really listens to what you say, unless it's something she approves of she will interrupt, change the subject or just end the conversation abruptly. The worst thing is to be either a guest in her house or have her as a guest in your house, it's just pick pick pick pick away at every tiny thing you do. Even if you try to comply wholly with her ideas or demands you fall foul somehow, it's incredibly demoralising.

These sound like little more than undesirable personality traits though, and I excused them as such by reminding myself that she has a heart of gold. Crisis in the family - she takes time off work and comes to help where she will tirelessly cook, clean, shop, launder, run you baths, give you massages (she's qualified in various therapies). She is, to all appearances, outwardly selfless and extravagantly generous with her time and her money - paying for everything, giving gifts, giving money. It's almost impossible to refuse her, even if her help is not only unwanted but actually a huge added stress.

When I decided the emotional cost of all this was too great I very very carefully but firmly confronted her about her need to control every aspect of everything that happened and how damaging her constant criticism was she completely disintegrated. 'How can you be so intolerant, I do everything for you, why can't you accept me as I am,' etc. I felt such an utter heel but also a tiny bit cross, never visited her again and let the phone contact dwindle a bit. Was unable to entirely put her off visiting me though.

So, when she gravitated towards a long term and much cherished friend of mine about 18 months ago I could almost hear a bomb timer ticking. It's just ended beyond horribly, with nice friend actually fleeing and hitching a lift from a stranger to get away. I joked beforehand that she would need therapy after her visit with the controlling one but she actually is traumatised.

Haha, rubbish at name changing but great at unnecessarily long posts!

Yes, I had a friend like this. When I was ill and first disabled she was all over me, taking me out, pushing people aside so I could shuffle through with my stick...however, as I got a bit better her interest dwindled and when I became effectively phyically independent she just dropped me like a hot brick, and went on to someone with 4 kids, no money, unreliable husband... Then she moved on to teenage offenders (lasted 10 minutes) then she moved on to her friend's godson (who ended up stealing from them)...on and on. She was/is a serial "rescuer". Can't do enough for you if she feels you are needy and dependent, then any sign of independence and you are dropped.

She obviously has a huge need to be "needed" but also is very didactic in her opinions and over rides what you are saying.

It's a bit sad really. She doesn't have any long term friends except one, whom she worships...very very odd.

She reminds me of Dickin's Mrs Jellybe, runs round helping anyone while her family eats cold beans from a tin and her kids are looked after by the au pair.

It is sad, well I used to think so until I realised that this person is actually abusive and not just bossy or a bit odd or whatever. She does the hallmark, classic things of isolating you from your other friends when you are with her - to the extent that she answered my phone in my house and told the caller I was busy, without my knowledge or consent, and turn other friends away at the door who have called in for coffee/chat again without asking me. Mortifying.

It was much much worse for my other friend who was staying there, developed a uti and was obstructed from accessing medical help, using the telephone, bullied into taking a prescription medication that was prescribed for someone else - the more my nice friend stood up to her, the angrier and more out of control the woman became. She even burst into her room at 5am shouting, face inches from hers, arms flailing. She wouldn't let her rest when she needed to, she even told her when to use the loo like you would a small child - go now because we can't stop for a wee while we are out. But she set the whole thing up so friend was so indebted and dependent and far from home that she was tolerating so much more than from anyone else.

My SIL is like this. She is manipulative to the extreme and insanely jealous of any other relationships in my DB's life.
She controls my db and their dc with a rod of iron, and the poor things are terrified of upsetting her for fear of causing one of her meltdowns.
She twists every situation to meet her own nasty little purpose, eg if I ask to see my nieces its emotional blackmail, if I challenge her ridiculous rules its abuse, if I want to speak to my db without her hearing I'm accused of bitching about her, if I see her out and about she ignores me then accuses me of blanking her, and so the list goes on.
My db however appears to worship her and in his eyes she can do no wrong, so I have decided after years of this treatment to cut them out of my life. She is just too toxic and I don't want her near my family.
I dread to think what she puts him through behind closed doors.

Had a friend like this. As long as you were down, she was your very bestest BFF but the minute you started to show a bit of initiative and perk up, she was on you like a ton of bricks. She was past master (mistress?) of the compliment-that's-not-a-compliment. "You look great," she'd say, "your skin looks great." pause. "You're wearing a TON of makeup, aren't you?

She was my roommate. I eventually moved out while she was on holiday and haven't seen her since. Felt so FREE when I was shot of her--didn't have to watch my every move, lie about where I was going and who I was seeing (or risk her coming along and slagging me off to/trying to get off with any guy that so much as glanced at me).

I think being batshit crazy and needing to put others down to make yourself feel good crosses gender lines.

I am perhaps wrong, but I don't see alot of difference in Mother Teresa with control issues and a philantropic bully. Why would control issues (which is really akin to emotional abuse) be forgiven of one but not the other? Trick question. Stop making excuses for them, do not forgive it of anyone.

With that aside...

How do you tell? I'd trust your gut feeling. Do you look forward to being with her? Or do you sort of dread it but can't quite put your finger on it?

Do you feel like you have to shift into a special gear to get along with her, or perhaps go dormant all together? Keep yourself pressed down (aka depressed) to avoid confrontation with her?

Maybe there is a difference in simple control-has to have activities her way all the time...and complex control: going beyond just activities-an enduring campaign to feed on your self-esteem to supply a superiority complex ("Death By Ten Thousand Cuts").

FrostInMay, you wrote:
" a person who is genuinely drawn to supporting other people without any sinister underlying motives?" Imho, these people are called volunteers, and they do exist. They expect nothing in return. Some might expect published commendation...hmm, it becomes complex.

For the narcissistic superiority complexes, I don't think the underlying motive is a sinister premeditated plot against someone, to use them per se, at least not at first. But enduring patterns must beg to differ.

I know I am being too generous and hope that they are not really vampires.

Yes. A friend's ex wife.
He eventually left her for another woman and I dont blame him one bit