How much arguing is healthy?

[BottleOfRum]

This may seem a bit of an odd question, but its something I'm really struggling with. To give some background, I grew up with wonderfully happy parents. In the 22 years I lived at home, I never heard them argue or exchange a cross word. Not once. No sniping at each other, nothing. And then they split up - mum found someone else. Complete shock, out of the blue, and it had a lot of after-affects I think. The main one being I don't feel I have a 'template' for what makes a happy, healthy relationship. I had a previous relationship with a lovely guy, who just sometimes lost his temper (not much though) and I ended it with him, telling him that men should never raise their voice to a woman, and that I wanted a relationship like my parents.

And now I'm in a relationship with a man I adore, we live together, he loves me so much, I have no doubt of that, but he can lose his temper with me (no physical violence ever, but sometimes things like calling me a 'prick', witholding my phone/cash card if he's angry and doesnt want me going out etc), and I don't know whether arguing like this (albeit not often) is normal or not?

I find it a difficult subject to broach in RL, as no-one wants to admit their relationship has flaws, so I don't know whether other couples fight too, IYSWIM?

Any help or advice would be really appreciated.

"witholding my phone/cash card if he's angry and doesnt want me going out etc " --

this is childish if not abusive behaviour. would you do that to your friends? grown up people talk about the issue of why you should/should not go out on certain day. eg other things planned etc.

calling you a "prick" - all depends how it is said - and how it makes you feel...you know if is said in a loving teasing way or not

Disagreements over things are (IMHO) inevitable. One can try to discuss such things in a rational manner, but I suspect if you have any sort of conviction over something (whether it be politics, childcare, parenting etc.) then some level of argument is inevitable over the years of a relationship.

However...

"witholding my phone/cash card if he's angry"

This is not in any stretch of the imagination normal or (again, IMHO) acceptable. I would be very concerned if I were you. In fact, I think I would be running for the hills!

I have been attending the "freedom Programme", for survivors of domestic abuse. A lot of these behaviours are discussed on the programme.

There is a website, and book, "Living with the dominator" Maybe have a look?

I'm sorry. No it is not normal, although extremely common.

I think it depends on your definition of what an arguement is.
My ex would always say we were arguing when from my stand point we weren't but he was a whole different ball game in that stakes to what is normal and acceptable one of the reasons he is my ex.
DH and I bicker and argue reasonably often but the times where we are getting along and are happy by far outweigh the times we argue.
I agree with what alexsdad says.

I also agree that the witholding phone/cash card stopping you go out etc is not normal or acceptbale and is controlling and possibly abusive.
Yes couples fight but there also has to be a mutual respect as well and it doesn't sound like your dp has this for you.
He is finding tools to control your behaviour and this IMHO is ot healthy in a relationship.

My DH and I bicker, occasionally I swear at him even but is swiftly followed by an apology. Shouting was more common at the start but still happens very occasionally. But I would not accept controlling behaviours as you describe them. Sorry, this sounds like the thin end of a very dangerous wedge.

Hmmmm, thats all food for thought I suppose. I don't want to break up with DP - I don't see his behaviour as abusive at all, I would never tolerate it if I thought he was. And I don't want you all thinking I'm some wimp who would let people walk all over me, I'm a very authoritative and respected women (in my working life, at least!), but I just feel so clueless when it comes to relationships.

I think DP definitly fits the 'childish and immature' category, rather than 'controlling and abusive' - I would honestly say I am the one who 'wears the trousers' so to speak.

Thank you all so much for your input - Alexsdad, I think you have helped me think about it clearly - I need to clarify to myself each time we argue whether its just one of those inevitable clashes of personalities that have caused it (politics, childcare), or whether its just petty name calling etc.

I get so frustrated not knowing whats 'normal' and acceptable, and whats not. How are you supposed to know these things?!!

You say you're authoritative & respected, Rum, so is it safe to assume you have arguments at work? When a peer or boss champions a strategy that you feel is wrong, how do you support your own case?

All relationships are 'relationships', you know. If there are people involved, it's a relationship. I can see how you were blindsided by your parents' steady marriage falling apart, but feel you're in danger of supposing there is a right way and a wrong way to be married. Not so, any more than there's only one way to approach everyday interpersonal matters like returning a faulty purchase.

FWIW, the phrase "we never argue" is generally considered a big warning sign about a marriage (pax, Reality). A healthy relationship between adults features respect for individual viewpoints, desires and emotions. Clearly, that leads to heated exchanges at times. It could be interesting to discuss this in depth with your mother?

I love rows (was in the school debating team & haven't shut up since!) ... but have to do without them, mostly, as it's very hard to find someone who can argue passionately without taking it personally. A very good rule of thumb is that, when it gets personal, it's unhealthy. Therefore, your partner's tendencies to call you names - and to control your money or movements - are deeply unhealthy. Seriously: that's why all your respondents have picked up on it.

If you can get work to send you on an ssertiveness course, you'd probably find it enlightening.

I like this page on "Characteristics of a Healthy Relationship." I believe Relate do a booklet on how to argue with love; you might want to send off for it.

We argue. What you describe is not normal.

My H was abusive (not physically really), he would call me names and shout, he hated me going out with friends, not in a 'forbidding' way, but there would be rows (for random reasons), whenever I was to go out. He never kept my phone/money - perhaps if he had I would have copped on sooner what he was doing.

I think what you are describing is dreadful and not 'normal', Sorry.

We sometimes bicker, usually if we've been drinking. But it never lasts. We don't call each other names. And keeping your cashcard is not arguing - it's controlling behaviour and I wouldn't stand for it. Run. Run as fast as you can.

Oh, I see that looks like we always bicker if we've been drinking. That's not true! It's just that we're more likely to overreact to something the other one says if we've been to the pub.

We very rarely argue and when we do it's sickeningly reasonable ('I realise you're annoyed about X but when you said Y I felt defensive so I attacked, which was unfair but doesn't detract from my actual point about X'). I've shouted at my husband 3 times in our 11 year relationship. Not one of those times involved an insult, they were just times where raising my voice felt like the only way to cut through a conversational barrier.

But that's us. I don't at all think it's necessary to avoid raising your voice.

One of the essential elements in a relationship, though, is compatible argumentative styles. If you're both people who like to clear the air immediately, fine. It's you're both people who need to withdraw, think things through and come back to the discussion when you feel prepared (us), also fine. It doesn't work well when one person is of the former sort and one of the latter.

And on top of that, there are some standard 'rules' for arguments, that you both need to make best-faith efforts to stick to (we all screw up) - you stick to the point, you attack the issue not the person, and obviously you don't use force or intimidation to get your way. That last one is so important it's rarely even mentioned in these sorts of conversations.

The thing we're reacting to here is that your partner withholds your cash to stop you leaving. That's using force or intimidatory tactics - since, presumably, you can't get it back because he's bigger and stronger. And the fact that he insults you rather than addressing the actual source of conflict is problematic.

I'd be wanting to talk about this with him, myself, possibly with the assistance of a third party. It's an unhealthy pattern, and it's likely to get worse rather than better if not addressed.

Interesting question OP. I have been married for 8 years (actually 7 years 10 months, better not count my chickens ) and for much of that time have argued vigorously with DH on a weekly basis about everything under the sun. Many of his control-freaky tendencies wind me up massively, and I just see red. But it can get too much, last year we went through a really bad patch and nearly split up. I've found that pre-empting his annoying behaviour or giving him a taste of his own medicine works far, far better than arguing.

Also, Grace, I'm up for a nice nonpersonal row whenever you feel like it.

Thank you all, so much. ItsGrace - now that you make me think about it, I never argue at work, and never with my friends or family either. I am the sort of person who is so wimpy non-confrontational, that I'll avoid it at all costs. I had a friend who stole from me not long ago, and rather than confront her and risk an argument, I just cut of contact instead, and never mentioned it to her. Perhpas an assertiveness course is the right thing for me, because when DP gets angry, I tend to retreat (usually lock myself in a room) and wait for him to calm down, because I hate seeing people angry; it upsets me. I think my reaction to anger is what bothers him most of all - by retreating from the issue, he feels I'm not listening to his points, and therefore gets angrier. Your link was very useful, as was some of the stuff I have just been reading from the Relate website.

Tortoise - I think you've hit the nail on the head. My partner's techniques in an argument are always force and intimidation. But this isn't enough for me to leave him - he is a kind, generous, loving man, who is adored by all. He just, perhaps, needs to 'learn' how to argue properly.

I shall definitly take up an assertiveness course, because perhaps by correcting my way of arguing, it will change DPs.

I understand that his tactics are not normal, I will let him know (gently) that these are unacceptable things, and if it were to continue, I would leave, I really would, I'm not a doormat, just someone who wants to try every avenue before I give up on someone.

So am I bottleofrum (the not giving up type)

That's why we are both in psychotherapy.
I'm realising lots of things there - like my own issues around insecure attachment/separation anxiety/boundry issues.
All of these things make it difficult for me to just leave.
I'm hoping to sort myself out and then make a rational decision that i'm truely happy with. It helps that H has accepted his bad behavior and is committed to working on it (difficult upbringing with abuse etc).

You don't need to be gentle here, you need to spell it out.

We have been together for 7 years, married for 3 - I am more shouty than he is but he can certainly hold his own! We do have loud discussions but they don't last long and we don't spin it out. He doesn't name-call; I sometimes do because that was normal for my family but I try not to because he hates it so.

However: if he ever tried to control me by witholding money or my phone, that would be on a different scale of wrongness. Dreadful thing to do. I wouldn't do any such thing to him either.

We've been together for 7 years and have had maybe 5 real blow-ups in that time. It has only ever been a bit of shouting (on both sides) and some tears (on mine, of anger). Never any swearing - although that's probably because we don't tend to swear generally- never any physical stuff and certainly never any juvenile antics like withholding cash/phone.

We do bicker and recently bickered in front of his parents, I ended up snivelling a bit and his mother told him he was in the wrong.

Bear in mind also that DH had a near-fatal head injury some years ago and is still relearning some 'social responses', but would never behave like your partner.

And neither would I accept it, should it occur. Nor should you.

no sorri - a " kind, generous, loving man" would never withold someone's cashcard to stop them going out - they would say " go off and have a great time" .

people who get tooangry/too controlling - well they often are apparetnly "kind and generous" too - especially to others and in public...

it is naive to thinka "nice " man can never be abusive/nasty...it depends on the degree of it as to what you might do about it...

but yes - get some assertiveness training and see whaere that takes you....

you lock yourself in a room to get away from him?

how often does this happen?

he "needs to learn how to argue properly"?

how is he going to do that? has he ever admitted taking your cashcard was wrong and apologised?

i think here you can only look at how you react to his behaviour - you cannot change his directly....