What's worse?

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

I'd really like to discuss this, but hypothetically if possible.

What's worse?

Adultery or emotional abuse?

My father was emotionally abusive to my mother, who then left him for another man. In that situation I would (and do) argue that the emotional abuse was the more serious offence.

There may be an argument that adultery is a form of emotional abuse too, though, in that it is knowingly causing pain to someone else.

Adulterly can be devastating to whole families too. It's a difficult one to call without context.

oh and, although you said to discuss hypothetically, I am assuming this is a real life situation you are wanting a perspective on, in which case I hope you are ok.

think they are both equally bad, but in different ways.

Adultery breaks the trust that you had in your OH. The trust can be rebuilt, but then you have other worries, STI's etc.

Emotional abuse is a long term drip feed isnt it? A person gets 'brainwashed' to feel shit, and becomes reliant on the abuser.

ooh bit heavy for a sunday morning for me i think.

Emotional abuse IMO. It plays with your head a physical act is easier to understand and move on from.

Not me, but thanks for the concern, life.

What about 'cyber' adultery? Sexting type thing?

What about emotional abuse that stems not from trying to control someone, but from resenting and despising them - finding them irritating, annoying?

Are you doing a thesis or something?

No, curiousmama.

I got both and they are both as shit as each other.

I think adultery is a kind of emotional abuse. It can also become physical abuse if the guilty party passes on an STI.

Emotional or Physical abuse are both awful and I include adultery within them. Any time someone deliberately causes the person they profess to love long-term pain and damage through their actions - that is abuse.....

I'm pretty sure that emotional abuse almost always occurs where there is adultery. The lying, abuse of trust & emotional distancing amount to gaslighting: the fact that there's a 'cause' for it doesn't alter its effects. Added to that, it's usual for the cheating partner to resent & and despise their spouse. It helps them justify their actions to themselves.

On the flip side, insistent abusers commonly are unfaithful, or suggest they are, in order to keep their partner off balance.

So I don't think it's an "either or". You rarely get one without the other.

x-posted, Elzy.

Ok, that's if the same partner is doing both things. What if one partner is emotionally abusive because he or she has got fed up with the other one, and takes it out on him/her by being snappy, naggy and refusing to talk about it, and the other gets fed up and has an affair?

Sorry to be so cryptic - just trying to get something straight in my head.

Both partners are being abusive, surely?

Partner no.1 has free choice about whether to remain in the relsationship with someone s/he doesn't like. They haven't left, so they're choosing to stay and abuse their DP. Nice.

Partner no.2 has free choice about whether to be monogamous. But, in choosing a monogamous relationship & then deciding to have an/other partner/s as well, they are abusing the main partner's trust - and breaking the contract between them.

It's important to add that the abused partner also has free choice. Of course, abuse breaks the target's spirit - so the facts of their rights have to be spelled out to them. If your OP relates to a real-life situation, I hope you will support this person in recognising their right to choose freedom from abuse.

Partner no.2 is being seen as the baddie in this and I don't think it's fair. Kind of 'there is no excuse for adultery' sort of thing...whereas I think there is no excuse for EA either.

Well, as I've said, I feel the two tend to come as a package.

It's funny what different people consider acceptable behaviour. I've had people, who didn't think my ex was abusive, change their minds when they find out he was unfaithful. Others again have done the same thing when they found out he was violent. No matter if others want to judge: I was always "trying" with him (walking on eggshells). So he was abusing me, with or without the infidelity & violence.

Perhaps this person could do with a searching review of what they expect & will settle for in their relationships?

Just to return to my original statement re: my parents, I would disagree with Grace when she says that in the situation above where one partner is abusive and the other has an affair that they are both equally abusive.

I would class my father's treatment of my mother as emotional abuse. Over 20 years he belittled her, was dismissive and treated her with pure contempt at times. He would have a childish tantrum if his dinner was not on the table when he wanted it and he ignored her for much of the time.

She put up with this because she thought it was best for us that they stayed together.

She finally met someone who gave her confidence and treated her in the way that she deserved to be treated.

I would argue that my Dad broke the marriage contract with his cruel treatment. I think my Mum was perfectly entitled to believe that the marriage was over and she was free to be with someone else.

I think emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse in destroying a person. I can not think that having an affair is equal to that.

I agree with lifeissweet... My parents were both unfaithful at various times thoughout their 30 year marriage but my father's emotional abuse was much more damaging to my mother than the adultery (which, let's face it, she was up to as well).

I can't think why I've never married

Thank you, life and belle. I think you've summed up what I thought.

I'm not understanding why life and Belle see their viewpoints as different from mine? Nothing to do with your OP, Wobble, I'm just requesting feedback on how I've managed to express myself so badly - if anybody feels like explaining

I don't think you have expressed yourself badly. I think you're right that adultery is a indicator/symptom of emotional abuse. I read the OP as taking the two in isolation and determining which, in isolation, would be more damaging to the individual. Obviously, the only individual viewpoint I can express with any certainty is mine. I would rather deal with adultery on its own than deal with emotional abuse. Adultery will make you feel like crap but you have a specific target/reason for that crap feeling. Emotional abuse, for me, would be much more damaging. It's hard to define and when you try to explain it, it can sound as if you're saying "but he called me a bad name" rather than "his constant abuse has completely eroded by confidence and destroyed my self esteem".

I honestly believe that adultery is caused by abuse though - it's either one partner disregarding the other so much that adultery is nothing to them as their partner's feelings are irrelevant OR if you're a victim of emotional abuse and then someone takes an interest in you and makes you feel good, you're quite likely to respond because you're dealing with crap at home.

Your OPs were all spot on, IMO.

The scenario you seem to be talking about here, MrsWobble, is where one partner has been emotionally abusive to the extent that the other has sought solace in an affair. The abuser may then be laying a guilt trip on the adulterer, either to make them stay or to give them the moral high ground when separating. Or, of course, something we have seen here often enough, the adulterer is reinventing a previously happy relationship to blame the affair on their partner's alleged abuse; whilst if Partner 1 really is an emotional abuser they will never admit it to themselves, Partner 2 or anyone else. Unless we all know both parties intimately, it is impossible to judge fairly. Controversially perhaps, I'm going to say that finding the culprit is not really that important.

It's easy to get bogged down in playground-style finger pointing, but blame doesn't achieve anything in the long run. These are two people who are not happy together. They almost certainly never will agree on who is to blame. What matters is that they stop making each other unhappy, ie get out of there and worry about who was worse as an academic exercise afterwards. The law will not assign assets on the basis of who was naughtier (except in very extreme cases), but on what they both have balanced with what they both need. In order to stop their precious assets being frittered away in legal wrangling, or one party trampling all over the other, they need to let go of all such reactions as guilt and righteous anger and look at it all practically.

It probably does matter very much to one party whether they can be forgiven by friends/family or can even forgive themselves. I can only say that time, and their experience with other partners, will show who is right.

On the other hand, if we are talking about a couple who do not plan to separate, it would call for one hell of a lot of work on both sides, starting with the decision to stop blaming and find out what each of them can do to make things better between them. Anything else is a recipe for many long years of misery.

Oh, thanks, Belle! I love your reasoning that "adultery is caused by abuse" - I'm sometimes guilty of forgetting that.

Also agree with Annie: "finding the culprit is not really that important." Difficult to keep that in view when you're the one in the mess, but worth the effort. Snooping, blaming and 'winning' only waste huge amounts of practical & emotional resources.

like saying which colour is better, red or blue really
in the abstract you can't quantify these things