DP + gender issues

[LadyCiall]

This is a difficult post to write, we are dealing with it in our relationship, however, I could do with some support and advice if anyone has it.

DP has always been up front with me about having issues in the past to do with his gender/sexuality. He's told me that at one point he was considering a sex change, and although he has had both girlfriends and boyfriends he's never been able to accept the term bisexual, as he feels he should be either gay or straight. He can't explain why.

He's had a hell of a time, having been in therapy since he was 7, thanks to an abusive dad, who seems to have had at least some influence on this. Being both homophobic and violent.

We've had various hiccups in our relationship because of these issues. Especially the gay/straight thing. But he has said, repeatedly, that he loves me and wants to have a family with me and spend the rest of our lives together. And I do believe him. However, he has also said, that though he has done some stuff with men, he's never had full penetrative sex, and part of him is still curious.

I know he wouldn't cheat on me, and I know he has no intention of leaving me to find out, but there's always the bit of me that wonders if one day his curiousity will get the better of him, and he'll leave me to find out.

Which is quite a lot to deal with.

Added to this though is the fact that he is not contemplating cross dressing. Which doesn't bother me in itself, have always had a thing for men in eyeliner/skirts, and have had an ex who wore skirts a lot (he was a goth, as is current DP). However, he was still very much a man.

DP currently says he doesn't know how cross dressing will make him feel, having never tried it. Due to him being unsure of his gender in the past he thinks there is a chance that he will feel "different"

Now, I know that he wouldn't go for a sex change, as he knows people who have gone through it and thinks it is too dangerous. And I love him totally. But there is a large part of my brain that couldn't cope with being in a relationship with a man who felt like he was a woman.

I know it wouldn't change him, and I know it wouldn't change the sex, but it would change something that I can't put my finger on, and that scares me.

On the one hand, if he feels that is what he wants to do I will support him no matter what. On the other, I feel like maybe I wouldn't be able to remain his partner, and as we are currently TTC..

My head is an absolute mess. I'm sure his is too. I'm trying so so hard to stay calm and encouraging, when all I want to do is stop him because I'm scared of where it will lead us. And I feel such a bitch for thinking this way, especially as I knew right from the start about all of this.

What on earth do I do?

Also, if it takes me a little while to respond, please don't shout troll. It's just he doesn't know I've posted this here and is often sat at the adjoining desk. So I'll be waiting till he is unable to read the screen.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself a bit.

If you don't mind him cross dressing in and of itself, try not to worry that it will make him 'feel like a woman'. I'm not an expert on this sort of thing at all, but I don't think it works that way. That said, I note that he's been considering a change previously, so actually irrespective of the crossdressing issue you think that on some level he feels like he's transgender, yes?

On the other hand, if you're feeling uncomfortable, I think you need to stop TTC for now and find a sympathetic counsellor who specialises in trans issues, and see them together or separately for a while. I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to feel like this changes things for you, and it makes sense that TTC plus his increased interest in crossdressing is bringing it all up for you now.

I've only known a couple of people who have transitioned, and neither well, but as far as I gathered both of them found that they and their partner benefited from joint counselling as part of managing their relationship. I know your partner isn't planning on an actual surgical transition, but the issues are the same.

So, long post, short version is: this is pretty heavy stuff, I think you should talk to someone qualified. And forgive yourself for feeling conflicted about it.

I also think you should look for specialist support as sadly a lot of people are still pig ignorant about gender and sexuality. Issues with sexuality/gender never just go away by themselves ie it won't work for very long for him simply to tell himself he's a heterosexual man when deep down he's not at all sure of that.
You might find the Beaumont Society a good starting point as sell.
And remember that love can take all sorts of different forms: you and he may remain a couple, you may not, you might find an open relationship easier to negotiate... but the fact that you both care about each other is important.

Thankyou so much, I was worried about what kind of responses I'd get for this.

So much so that I had to name change.

I will look at that link, thankyou SGB, and I know you are right about not being able to make it go away. Which is why I feel so awful for wanting to.

Tortoise It was actually him who thought that cross dressing would make him feel like a woman, which sugests to me that he wants it to. He's a photographer, and wants to take pictures of himself made up, and see if he can pass as a real woman, without anyone recognising him.

He hasn't had any councilling for over a year now, due to fuck ups at our previous GP, so hopefully we can get him into therapy again, as this is something he was dealing with.

Put the TTC on hold. There's too much going on here for a baby to have any room or attention.

I recommend this Yahoo Group for you. Is your DH familiar with the work of Joe Kort? You can google him, or he can. Here's a Joe Kort link -- the Resources section is very thorough.

Everything you feel about the relationship and about him is perfectly fine -- you have an absolute right to your feelings here. Don't let PCness get in the way of expressing your needs, or trying to figure out what your role in your DP's life should be, or trying to see what's in all of this for you.

i was in a very similar relationship quite a while ago, and tbh, i would leave him but remain friends.
He will either leave you for a man, cheat on you with a man, marry you/have kids then leave sometime after that or want you to accept him as a cross dresser/something along those lines.

Im sorry this sounds harsh, but he's too messed up and undecided to be in a relationship, and i am you are TTC, please stop.

I agree OTTMummaA about your prognosis, and second your advice about TTC. Please don' do this with this man.

Women I have encountered on the Yahoo group I linked to have gone several ways with their relationships. Many feel their men are just one woman shy of being gay; many feel they are just one man shy of being cast aside and dumped like a hot potato. For many, the uncertainty is too much to handle. For others, the idea that as a woman you are not 'enough' for the man you love and never will be, is the relationship killer.

Im glad someone agrees with me, i thought i would get flamed super bad!
but having been through it, i have to be honest with you OP.
Unfortunatly this doesn't end well for you if you wait for him to make a choice.
And even if he never makes a choice, it will not be a happy 2 sided relationship, one of you will end up seriously resenting the other.
If he loves you he will be unselfish and agree to stop TTC/being in a sexual relationship.
It is selfish for him to put you in limbo like this, even if it is un-intentional its still very selfish.

Agree wholeheartedly with you, OTTMummaA. Very solid advice.

I feel I'd still be friends with my exH if we hadn't married.

Maybe people are being too harsh. Most women worry that their husbands' will leave them for a younger model as they get older and this could be one of either sex. Nobody can guarantee their partner won't leave.

You say the cross dressing turns you on. Try and include some of his fantasies in your lovemaking. Who knows, once you have given him a good rogering with a strap-on, he might not be so curious anymore. On the other hand, you both might really enjoy it. Remember, there is a difference between fantasy and reality.

Enjoy yourself.

I would say (kindly) that you obviously love him, and he you, but that essentially you are his GBF while he works out his issues. I would say that TTC is a bad idea, but that you need to give this situation time to play out. You clearly care about each other, but I'm not convinced that you are right for each other as life partners, but as loving friends.

When it comes to a gay husband or one who is actively questioning his sexual identity or orientation, the likelihood is much higher, ime and imo, that experimentation or trying things out will take place. The process of coming out or fully identifying as gay can sometimes involve a phase of making up for lost time and a high degree of self involvement which can leave a wife feeling completely hurt and denigrated.

Actually, one of the key things here is how the OP feels about monogamy. If monogamy is essential to her, this relationship is probably one that would be better as a close friendship rather than a couple-relationship especially if she is skirting the edges of 'I can love him enough to make him love me completely' -you can't make a person love you in that perfect-partner way, people either do or they don't and they are under no obligation to do so. If she is not particularly bothered about monogamy and she and her DP can communicate and negotiate about the possibility of both of them having other partners occasionally then it may well work out just fine.
As to the TTC probably best to put it on hold for the time being while you sort yourselves out but if you reach that stage (depending on how old you are) where there is no real couple-relationship between you but both of you want to be parents and think you can make a working co-parent relationship (and have other partners) then that has just as good a chance of being a happy ending as anything else.

Definitely only monogamy for me, I don't share well

OTTMummA To be honest, leaving him because there is a chance that one day he may go off me seems to me to be premature. Right now, I trust him implicitly, I know he wouldn't. I cannot account for decades sown the line, but who can. And I think that living my life on what ifs would be far more detrimental to me (fairly fragile) mental health.

Though, don't get me wrong, I do know exactly what you mean, and if it wasn't me in this relationship, I would probably say the same as you word for word. So I will think hard on that.

We've been to the GP today for counselling for both of us - we appear to have more issues than we can count. Though most have brought us closer.

mathanxiety He does say repeatedly, and I'm not sure if I said in my OP that he prefers to be in a straight relationship, due to him wanting the "family" ie. mum, dad, kids. It's more whether I could deal with him thinking of himself as a woman.

LC -- at least the issues are out in the open and you're talking through everything, and that's a really good thing. It's important to understand that there's never any such thing as everything being settled for once and for all (in any relationship) and keeping on talking openly and honestly is essential. You both have the right to change your minds, but this can be done in a way that minimises hurt and does not involve betrayal or anything underhand or deceitful.

SGB is right about the really important factor here being your attitude to monogamy. His attitude is going to be equally important of course, since it takes two to be monogamous.

When it comes to him thinking of himself as a woman, that really involves you thinking of him as a woman too, otherwise you're thinking of him in a way that is different from the way he feels about himself. How he sees himself, how he identifies, is an important part of who he is -- can you accept that you are in a relationship with a woman, or do you somewhere deep down reject that deep-seated part of him and wish he were less of or more of something else? You have the right to answer the question in the way that you feel is best for you.

OP - On the surface, it sounds like he may be Bi, but his childhood experiences sounds so bad that they are probobly what's causing this obfusication of the issues, he may also be transgendered, but that's something a psychologist at the gender identity clinic would know more about then any of us (probobly).

If he is transsexual, he would have most likely identifies with the female gender from an early age, although this may have been repressed, whatever the outcome is it will need your patience, but as you say you love him, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end.

OTTMummA - Despite your past experiences, you don't really sound like you understand the issues at all, not all TG people even have a sex drive, yet alone sleep around out of curiousity.

"It's more whether I could deal with him thinking of himself as a woman."
That's got to be the big part of it - and that's a big thing to go through and to come to a conclusion on.

From the other direction - I have a friend who transitioned from being a lesbian woman to being a transgender man. In the process, him and his partner had to work through a lot, but they are still together and are having a baby together as a couple. The partner in question must of course have had to adapt a lot from being in a lesbian relationship to being in a relationship with a transman, but adapt she did, and it must be possible. (To be fair I don't know whether she identified as lesbian or bisexual before he transitioned.)

In the case of the OP, there doesn't seem to be an issue with her DP's sex drive, StepSideways. If there's gas in the tank, it usually ends up taking you places -- OTTMummA is right about this. The OP's DP is actively seeking to experience a sexual identity and is now contemplating cross dressing on his path to sorting himself out. If this doesn't feel like what he's after, who is to say what avenue he will try next.

Being TG or Bi doesn't make someone a cheat, which seems to be suggested here.

No, you're only a cheat if you cheat. But the OP's DP seems to be on a voyage of self-discovery, which may well involve exploration of m2m sexual relationships. It's the fact that he seems to be in turmoil and prepared to actively try on different identities that makes it more likely that sexual exploration would occur, if only to eliminate some possibilities. Intensive therapy is the other way to settle all of his questions, but this might be the work of a lifetime -- so might the gender and sexual exploration though.

I do thnk it's fair to point out that being a plain old normal het in a het relationship is NO guarantee against one partner breaching monogamy. People get bored with existing partners and seek new ones, people who are not really monogamous at all buy into the rubbish that monogamy is compulsory/superior only to find that it doesn't work for them. So there are no guarantees, no matter what you do, and the OP is certainly entitled to think that ending a relationship that currently makes her happy on the grounds that it might go wrong would be a bit daft.
However, I still think that actively TTC when one or both of you is in therapy (of any kind) is probably a bad idea.

So much to reply to, so hope you don't mind if I come back later and answer all of you individually.

Have had a looong chat with DP. I feel much more reassured. He's pointed out that to him, what he wants most is to spend the rest of his life with me, over everything else. So, that's a giant weight off my mind, of course the future isn't set in stone, but right now he has no doubts about us whatsoever. Maybe he'll develop them, maybe I will, who knows. But if I walk away now then I am deliberately going against what we both want, based on a maybe.

DP's sex drive is actually very low, almost non existent, so I've never been worried about him straying or following his dick. He's on so much medication he'd have a real struggle there.

It also turns out that DP didn't know about my men in skirts fetish, so we are finding workarounds already. It's a way of him cross dressing within the safety of our relationship, without the pressure to be female.

I've also told him my feelings on him not being "him" anymore, and how, although I couldn't care less how he dresses, I don't think I could be in a relationship with a woman (even pre-op).

What we've decided on, is to try out a part time alter ego - which is still recognisably him, but different. This actually led on from something I remembered from my youth - I always wished I was androgynous and was insanely jealous of drag queens, so had a persona to go with it. Which all sounds very weird, but I guess these things are what drew us to each other.

You know, until today I honestly thought of us as a bit bland and boring. Scratching the surface reveals all sorts doesn't it?

We still don't know what feelings the cross dressing will bring up, but at least we both understand the other's viewpoints and fears, and can address things as they come along.

Best of luck LC. I'm another one who likes to mess around with gender and gender roles (am female biologically, occasionally like to let out a male alter ego) - but what I would say is that having DC does complicate things; when you have DC you can't really escape having to engage with Straightworld and this is hard and bewildering. I didn't plan to be a parent and most of my friends before I had DS were childfree, gender-blending, 'alternative lifestyles' people and all of a sudden I was lost in a different world and forever having to shut up mid conversation. IT's all turning out OK so far but from my own experiences I would say think it through especially if you (or your partner) are unhappy enough with yourselves and your situations to be in therapy, before deliberately having a babe. Because having a baby does change the dynamic of your life and of any relationship you might be in.

Thankyou SGB, it's somehow reassuring to know there are others out there who understand.

I've never been a part of the Straightworld (such a good way to describe it), neither has DP, having always been involved in either the Goth, Burlesque, Pagan, Satanic or Fetish scenes, I feel parenthood will be a learning experience in a different way to most people.

(Have probably revealed my usual posting self in that last paragraph, but nevermind)

Hopefully when we do get ourselves sorted, both you and me will still be on MN. Would be nice to know you are there and know how it feels.

I would avoid The Beaumont Society for advice. Try www.transpartners.co.uk/. I know the people behind it. They're lovely and full of good sensible advice.

He doesn't like the idea of bisexual? If he was brought up with the options of 'Normal' or 'Poof' it's probably not an option he's familiar with. His mind might say Bi, but not his heart. It sounds like he trying to find the correct label to fit into rather than understand what his own personal feelings are. He may be in need of expressing a feminine side. Some men have bigger ones than others. Trannying might help.

I hope you can work it out together and if you want a chat I'm on [email protected]

PS. Sometimes when people have bottled things like this up for ages and start to express their true selves, they can act like a bit of an arsehole for a few months. . It's the relief of the stress of all the pressure I suppose. It does pass though.