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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Hey, Karmann....psssttt

28 replies

AnyFucker · 19/03/2010 14:26

Hello

Have seen you around giving brill advice

I just wanted to ask you how you are...

OP posts:
Karmann · 19/03/2010 14:45

Oh thank you - that's lovely!

Been having counselling and it's going well - much calmer and more in control. Hopefully the really dark days are behind me now. Still some way to go but am much more focused.

Going away for the weekend and really looking forward to it.

AnyFucker · 19/03/2010 14:57

Ohhh, I am pleased

That has made my day, honestly

Have a great weekend

OP posts:
Karmann · 22/03/2010 21:03

Had a wonderful weekend - building new memories. It was great! Went to see a Ska band on Friday night, walked aroung all day saturday and came home for him to cook a great meal on Sunday. Got great news before we left - I don't have glaucoma, having previously being told I have. Lovely time.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 22/03/2010 21:09

Oh that's great news Karmann - I love ska too!

That's just what you have to do - build new memories. So pleased about your health news too. I've got a feeling you're going to be okay. How's the counselling going btw?

AnyFucker · 23/03/2010 09:25

just seen this ( am a bit out of action with germy-type illness )

glad you had a good weekend x

and good news on the health front

OP posts:
Karmann · 23/03/2010 10:49

Sorry about your germs AF - hope you feel better soon.

I have mixed feelings about the counselling but I think what I am drawing from it is the ability to switch off those destructive thoughts so that's good. I am usually fine for about six weeks and then start getting upset again so we will see if this is my 'normal' self or new self in a few weeks time, i.e. if I don't get upset in a few weeks time I will have cracked it! I am learning that those horrible thoughts and feelings have no place in the here and now.

What I really need to work on now is getting my motivation back. I can't be bothered to do anything much and it's so unlike me - usually tearing around! Need to think of maybe some voluntary work or a job even - that's a scary thought.

akhems · 23/03/2010 10:59
Smile
Karmann · 23/03/2010 11:00

Hi - stuck in the shop today! (No e-mail)

AnyFucker · 23/03/2010 14:29

< splutters chesty cough-type bugs all over thread >

oh, I do like to share

OP posts:
Karmann · 23/03/2010 14:34

Thank you so much for that! You are just too generous!

Karmann · 24/03/2010 19:00

AF - hope you're feeling less bug infected today.

WWIFN - had more counselling today and would like to go through it with you at some stage if I may.

AnyFucker · 24/03/2010 19:05

< feeble cough >

< fades away >

I have this man-flu, ya know

OP posts:
Karmann · 24/03/2010 19:13

Yes - apparently it is real! That will be great news to my BIL, but not so much for my sister!

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 25/03/2010 00:10

Hi Karmann - post away when ever you want to. I'll be only too happy to help if I can. AF, sorry you've been unwell.

Karmann · 25/03/2010 10:03

Hi WWIFN. My counsellor is more of a life coach which I think suits me better. He's teaching me how to put all the horrible memories in the past where they belong. He wants me to do physical exercise on a daily basis and I agree with him but I have become so lazy. I've completely lost my get up and go, I have no motivation at all and I know it makes things worse. Did you struggle like this?

I really can't talk to anyone in RL about it - people all come to me for help. They all see me as such a strong person and I suppose I am really. It takes strength to get through something like this - I used to think it was weak to stay but not anymore. Not one person has told me to leave him which I find quite interesting.

My H really struggles to talk about it and I don't think going over and over it is of any use now. I know what I need to know. I mentioned to my counsellor that I have such horrible thoughts about OW and he says that's normal - well I know it's normal but I don't like such nasty thoughts. Did you go through that?

My H can't explain why it happened and the counsellor said that he is probably being truthful when he says that. I know why - maybe I am just brighter than him. I think I understand him much better than he understands himself.

I do realise I'm waffling but it helps to get it out - even if it's a bit disjointed.

saddest · 25/03/2010 10:08

I sometimes find writing poetry can help....you know using all that imagination and creative thinking.

Karmann · 25/03/2010 10:41

That's an interesting idea. My mother is brilliant at writing poems but I am not so talented in that department. I'm thinking of writing it down though - just to get it out but not sure I am ready for it yet.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 25/03/2010 13:12

Hi Karmann. I'm interested in you having someone who is more of a life coach. I wonder whether because the focus for this sort of help is very much on the future, it's a bit too soon for you to do that? For me, I found I couldn't really focus on the future until I'd understood and made sense of the past. That said, I've got a pretty open mind and would be interested to see whether this sort of therapy is a better approach for you.

So much of what you say resonates with me. I completely empathise with your feelings about the OW. Like you, my feelings took me by surprise in their ferocity and I don't think I've ever actually hated anyone and actively wished them harm before - but I still absolutely wish the OW harm. Because I don't think she ever told her H about the affair it always seemed to me that she emerged from the experience pretty unscathed and that really offends my sense of justice.

I think I would have felt differently towards her if she had been a basically nice person whom in other circumstances, I might have befriended. Strangely enough, when it was clear that she was devastated that my H ended it with her, I actually felt a bit sorry for her. My H showed me some (very long) E mails she had sent though and her real character and values shone through in what she wrote. I also saw texts and listened to the angry answerphone messages she left for my H after he ended the relationship.

I thought she was a bit pathetic, hugely narcissistic and self-absorbed - but I don't think I really hated her until she started writing foul things about me and our 11 year old DD on various social networking sites. At that point, I wanted to rip her head off - and that feeling has more or less remained!I think that hatred was particularly fuelled by the notion that someone was attacking my child, whereas I really don't think I'd have felt as bad if she had just attacked me - and I would always have understood her need to vent at my H.

The truth is, we are worlds apart in terms of character and values and we would never have been friends. She has never made female friends, has spent her whole working life making spurious complaints, was unfaithful to her H three times in the space of a year, writes spiteful anonymous letters, is racist - in summary, just the sort of person I'd avoid. I've met people who've known her over the years - and even though none of them know her significance to me, they have described her as vindictive, self-obsessed, psychotic and a nightmare. The kindest thing anyone's ever said to me about her is that she is "damaged".

When I get these murderous thoughts about her, I try to see this in terms of a long game. A person like this is never going to be truly happy - and I really do believe in karma. I wouldn't want her life at all and I have so much more going for me. I do however believe that the day I hear that karma has really caught up with her, I will feel a sense of closure and that justice has been restored. I live in hope!

I try to foresee a time when I will feel nothing about her - a sort of neutrality. But I reason that this will probably be a few years down the line - I am nowhere near that just yet.

Yes also, to the feelings of lethargy and demotivation. This was not instant for me - I seemed to hit that particular wall about 10 months after discovery. I found I could cope with work (I run my own business) and other "essential" things with the DCs, but this was reactive stuff in the main, when I had hitherto been such a driven, proactive person. I had absolutely no motivation to garner new business, arrange social events, have a sort-out at home. I just found the trauma so all-consuming that virtually everything else in life seemed trivial.

My other problem was that the affair came on top of two years of a variety of things in life that had gone wrong. You know how sometimes you get those phases in life when everything you touch seems to go wrong? We'd had 2 years of that. The summer of the affair was the worst of my life - loads of things were going wrong, from the minor to the major and throughout it all, I was coping with a distant and angry H. I cannot remember getting a single piece of good news for the longest time.

Then came the affair discovery and I think with any crisis, we all go into fight or flight mode. The fight mode that I adopted was actually pretty energising and since my H and I were communicating at a far superior level to before - and also going through what I've since seen described as "hysterical bonding" in terms of our physical relationship, that energy sustained me for a while. Then came the "wall" which with hindsight, was probably depression of sorts. I don't think this is unusual either, from what I've read.

Karmann, your H might believe that it won't help raking over the past, but for me it was a must. He really does need to understand the "why" of his affair and so do you. I genuinely don't think anyone can properly move on with their lives until there is a shared understanding about the trauma. It isn't enough for you to understand him, he needs to understand him. If you want to share a life with him and affair-proof your future marriage, this is essential work.

I don't know if you read a post I put on recently which was a cut and paste of my husband's own writing about his affair. That might help you to see the journey your H should make. In the early days, my H had lots of unchallenged beliefs about his affair and his character. He also wanted to draw a line under it and move on, but he soon realised through his own counselling that it doesn't work that way.

He is now profoundly grateful that he faced up to things about himself and his character that he had been avoiding and in denial about for years. He is a very different person to the one who was abjectly sorry on discovery, but completely unsighted about himself. In that sense, I can look back now and view the catalyst of the affair as an agent of tremendously positive change.

I can also see how I'm going through a bit of a personal journey myself about the things in life that motivate me and bring me joy. You might find you do the same. I am questioning a lot of the things I have done out of habit or necessity - from friendships, where we live - right through to my chosen career.

I've discovered for example, that I love to write and have a tremendous motivation to share all these insights that have been so painfully gained, with others. One of the things I'm considering at the moment is to write a book, or even a series of articles. That's exciting and terrifying at the same time - to change direction after all this time, but it's starting to feel right for me.

I suppose that ultimately, I want this horrible life experience to count for something - you might feel the same. In the early days I saw this as a challenge to overcome and my need was to "get back to normal" (hence my username!) but I tend to view it now as a journey that was sent for a reason.

AnyFucker · 25/03/2010 17:55

wwifn... you have a talent for writing, that is for sure

and a talent for systematically analysing feelings and motivations

I think your clear-sightedness has helped a lot of people already...am sure it could be the saviour of many more

OP posts:
Karmann · 25/03/2010 18:33

Hi WWIFN. I think the life coach suits me better. I can't change what happened and it was important to me to find someone who could help me learn to live with it. I'd made as much sense of it as I could but was struggling with the aftermath. It doesn't go unmentioned at the counselling so it's not ignored but the focus is very much on me moving forward.

I felt I was left with no choice but to tell OW's H what was going on. She had been asked by us to leave us alone to work it out between us (very politely I might add!) but she continued to attempt to contact him. I had kept the secret mobile he had so she couldn't reach him through that, he didn't have her secret number because it was on that phone so she started calling him through his business numbers. That really made me furious but at the same time I didn't want to upset her H or their DCs.

Her H was a lovely man and thanked me and for a while we kept in touch and supported each other. Although he is standing by her I still hope that she is as miserable as sin and feels such a fool for being used - I don't think I will ever feel sorry for her. Had she been decent enough to leave us alone on discovery I may have felt differently.

I cannot understand how a grown woman can write foul things about a child. Go for your H maybe, go for you - but a child? My counsellor is very much of the opinion that social networking sites should be called anti-social. He is seeing more and more of this kind of thing enabled by mobile phones and the internet and, sadly, believes it's the tip of the ice-berg.

I can really relate to your discovery coming on top of a bad couple of years. I had nursed my elderly neighbour through cancer, lost her and then had to cope with her family turning nasty on me. On top of that my DD decided at 14 that she wanted to live with her dad. That was horrendously painful. We've always been extremely close and I just could not understand it and took it very personally. Then comes this.

I think the 'wall' comes some time after. It certainly did with me. The first instinct is to make it all work, throw yourself into the 'hysterical bonding', the make it all right again and bang - it hits you. It is a trauma, a huge shock which is often delayed.

It's me that doesn't think it will help raking over the past now. I did read your H's post and was amazed at the depth of his thought, his honesty and his self discovery. It must, at times, have been a painful journey but he did it. I am pretty sure mine will never do that, we're all different people, but he does have a much clearer understanding of the impact his behaviour has on others - not just relative to this situation.

I think any book you write would be a wonderful tool for people. I can see, through your writing, the journey you have been on. Isn't it strange how out of some awful situations some good can come. I have had so many negative life experiences but in a way I wouldn't change them. I've learnt so much but, more importantly to me, it enables me to help others.

AnyFucker · 25/03/2010 18:51

a joint book ?

wwifn/karmann

I feel a bit of a fraudulent hanger-on here

OP posts:
Karmann · 25/03/2010 18:57

Lol! Stay around! Hope you're feeling better.

AnyFucker · 25/03/2010 19:36

I am rallying

I have a glass of red, for medicinal purposes

OP posts:
Karmann · 25/03/2010 19:58

Yep, I need a glass too!

akhems · 26/03/2010 07:20

I just want everyone to know that Karmann has been an absolute star to me these last few weeks.. she's helped me make sense of things and think things through before taking stupid actions and been a fantastic friend.

I just hope that one day I can return the support and friendship she's given me.

Karmann rocks!!!!!

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