Self counselling after affair - help needed

[abedelia]

Right, need advice on how to go about some 'self counselling' of my H and why he had an affair. Wwifn, I'd love your H's opinion for a start...

Many of you on here will have heard bits of the story of my H's 7 week EA and subsequent PA with the OW, his ex assistant (just a one night stand, thankfully) some 18 months ago. Don't want to go into it all again, if only so regular posters won't be bored

Anyway, this is a question about counselling. We had a single Relate session - horrible woman who I realise (after reading Shirley Glass and posting here) had a very old fashioned view of affairs and their causes and just wanted to concentrate on us 'getting over it'. FFS after blurting out the story her first approach question was 'tell me what makes your heart sing' bawk.

So, I have tried to find a counsellor with a more open and dare I say informed view, but to put it bluntly, unless we drive 40 miles it's not possible. And THAT'S not possible with a child in half-day childcare, there's simply no time.

So, if you're still with me - I'm at the point where we have (on our own) gone into the nuts and bolts of their relationship - the majority was via email and I have read them all, talked about his feelings when they met up, etc. So, now for the hard bit - why it began, what was going through his head etc.

He says our relationship had absolutely no problems and did the whole distancing thing so that sounds abut right (have a quick post from wwifn that I intend to show him about distancing so he can understand why he 'turned into another person' as he puts it). But I want to help him realise WHY it happened. With being a slow reader and self employed / extremely busy he doesn't have time to read Shirley Glass himself, so I need to think about what questions to ask him. Help!

I think it's dangerous territory. Why isn't it him posting this or asking these questions? Why are you working so hard to fix a problem he created?

I know often women will beenfit from reading and listening ang gleaning and men prefer to just move on. But, if you can't he's going to have to do some things to help you move on isn't he - slow reader or not?

I'm not working hard without his input - but there is no other way, as all the counsellors locally are crap. He is really and genuinely trying to make my life better. However I don't think that he realises the importance of looking at causes etc in depth rather than superficially, which is something counselling usually addresses, and I need that so I can also get all the facts and move on.

Okay, I see. But your post (to me anyhow) makes it sound as though you are going to be counselling him on something he has done to you with the idea of it being your benefit and secondarily the mutual benefit of your relationship.

I guess this might be a little like the type of therapy used when rape victims talk to the rapist as part of their therapy. The idea being that the offendor is caused to consider the victim more humanly and the victim has a chance to assert herself face to face with her attacker.

I just don't see how you can do this in the context of a loving relationship. It's perhaps different when you don't have to see the person again. What if the closure ends with you getting it out in the open, but you hating him for the reality of what happened? What if the honesty makes it too real? There will be no intermediary to stop you railing against the person you want to re-bond with.

I think if you are going to attempt this then you need to make some 'space' so that you can hear what needs to be heard and then take time out to deal with your feelings. Your marriage is a victim of what went on but you as individuals are not - not in the same way. If you had a counsellor they would house some of your emotions, and buffer any severe reaction. You're not going to have this so you will need to create it I think.

Marriage counselling is hard enough with an intermediary, lord knows how you go about it successfully on your own.

I would be interested in wwifn's take on this

abedelia, I have absolutely no experience of counselling...but surely you cannot do this as you are (obviously) too close to the situation, emotionally

isn't that why counsellors are so good (if you get a good one, that is)...ecause they are removed from the problems and so come with absolutely no baggage

what you are thinking you could do seems like a case of conflict of interests, to me

I dunno....just doesn't seem right

Abedelia. I had a chat with DH this morning and he'll be glad to give his perspective on this. He's suggested that he writes something for you - and I'll post that on here for you. Depending on what he says, that might be quite a useful post for your H to see, as it will be from another man's perspective.

Once H has done that, I'll add my take on this. What I will say is that I understand why you need something else now in order to move on properly. Thinking of you.

Abedelia - as promised. My H has spent a lot of today doing this (even missed some of the footie!) and found it very painful at times, but was glad to help.

"I am Mr WWIFN and am responding to your request for my thoughts on where your husband is now, based on my personal experience. I refer to my affair within this open letter to you, but the actual details are probably for another day or post. I have never posted on this forum before, and only read those posts that WWIFN wants me to see. She has talked me through your experience and given me perspective on where you and your husband are at.

How comforting and easy it must be for your husband to persist with the Â?I just fancied her, she offered, I accepted, it meant nothing, get over itÂ? mind set. My initial self-delusion was similar, I was deceiving myself (even before discovery) that the OW had seduced me, chased me and encouraged me against my better judgement (and persistent refusals) to meet up with her, and then (and ONLY then) as soon as I had agreed to meet her she made it obvious that this encounter would be sexual, and that had surprised me. That was all complete bollocks. I was manipulative to a huge degree, played the OW like a fish (knowing or assuming that she wouldnÂ?t go away) and allowed much of it to happen so that at the end, I would be ABLE to self-deceive that I wasnÂ?t really to blame. I wanted a sexual affair with her, suspected full well that the meeting would be sexual before I agreed to it, and would have been disappointed if it wasnÂ?t.

What I would say to you, and thereby your husband, is this: Without recognition of what we did ourselves, and the blame for what happened that we should accept, how can we ever be sure, much less assure partners, that the same thing cannot happen again? He WILL see people he fancies again, itÂ?d be impossible not to, he may well be flirted at and encouraged, he could even have or make the opportunity for something to happen. How can he, or YOU, know that he will recognise when a friendship becomes dangerous and that the end result will be a refusal if he doesnÂ?t examine the WHY and the actual HOW of his affair and most importantly the reasons behind it?

I have said to WWIFN several times now that Â?I couldnÂ?t do this to ME againÂ?. It is only through understanding myself, and growing as a person, that I see what harm my affair did to ME. I donÂ?t think this is the most important thing IÂ?ve discovered, it is obviously a fact that I couldnÂ?t ever do this to WWIFN again, that isnÂ?t my point, the point is that you cannot know yourself until you look hard and confrontationally at yourself, and I donÂ?t believe your husband is doing that yet. He is still in denial about HIS responsibility for his affair. It wasnÂ?t all the OWÂ?s fault, it wasnÂ?t just a quickie.

I now believe that had I NOT been caught during my affair, and it had ended Â?nicelyÂ?, it is possible that IÂ?d have gone on to have other affairs throughout what ever remained of my marriage (I say that as my behaviour would inevitably have lead to WWIFN kicking me out anyway) and possibly even hooked up with this OW again at a later date. I still like to think that that wouldnÂ?t have been the case, but am aware that those thoughts are of course self-protective. I know that none of that is possible now, and am happy with myself on that count. I am now and will always be a faithful and loving husband.

I love WWIFN completely, and am honoured by her presence. She is everything to me, I treasure her. The fact that I had stopped seeing that for a period of months astounds and frightens me. It can never happen again, and I know it never will but (and this is the thing) I COULDNÂ?T KNOW THAT WITHOUT KNOWING WHY IT HAD!

Self-awareness is difficult and costly, both emotionally and personally. It is not a comfortable, nice, safe or easy journey to have to make. I saw a private counsellor, and only regret that she wasnÂ?t more challenging in her questioning of me. WWIFN, as I am sure you will understand, was far more demanding in her questioning and the private sessions with my counsellor really only provided the building blocks upon which WWIFN and I would begin our talks for the week between sessions. I do think the sessions helped and were not a waste of time or money, but talking with WWIFN for hours and hours (as we still do) was what enabled us to move forward and both get some understanding of what I had done, and WHY.

I am 17 months into my journey and sometimes still deceive myself, fail to see the obvious truths and even (as an instant reaction, not as a planned conversation) lie. I am, however, a much nicer person than I was. The fact that I can still do those things, yet am certain that I am hugely nicer, gives some measure of how low I feel I was. I have confronted demons and truths about ME and my character that IÂ?d have been far more comfortable ignoring (as I had done) for the rest of my life. I am now aware that I am capable of being incredibly self-centred and even really cruel to those closest to me, that love me the most. I was in denial about what my behaviour was doing to my marriage and kids, and certain that IÂ?d get away with what I was doing.

It is a real pity, and possibly even a huge mistake, for him not to read what we now refer to as Â?The bookÂ? (Shirley GlassÂ? Â?Not Just FriendsÂ?). Even if he can only get through the first 40 or so pages heÂ?d get a huge insight into distancing, gap creation and the fact that affairs happen in good marriages. IÂ?m currently on my second reading of it, and as the first time was months ago when my self-discovery was far from where it is now, I am getting more from it than before. One thought resonates as a safety barrier: If another person knows more about your relationship with your partner than your partner knows about them, itÂ?s dangerous.

I do believe that your husband does love you, and always did. He was flattered by the attention of someone he fancied, and played along. He was not seduced or cornered into this, he was a willing partner whoÂ?s actions allowed this affair to happen. A clear example is that he created a gap between you and him to allow closeness between him and the OW. I recognise that completely, there was nothing wrong with my marriage as I am certain there was nothing wrong in yours either. This gap creation (or distancing) needs to take place so that the affair can somehow be Â?justifiedÂ?. He regrets bitterly what he has done to you and your relationship, and wishes that it had never happened. He does want to get past this and rebuild his life with you, but (and this is the unfortunate bit) at the least cost to himself.

Finally, if your husband was to meet me in a pub or at a football heÂ?d never think that I was the author of a letter like this. I am a bloke through and through, in a male dominated job. I drink, smoke and swear more than I probably should and have never sat cross-legged on a beanbag. No one that knows me (except for WWIFN obviously) would recognise me as the author of this letter. It is not anti-masculine to challenge yourself and think like this, it takes guts.

I have every belief in you, and really hope that your journey is successful. Take care, and feel free to ask me anything else you want. Mr WWIFN."

Abedelia - I hope H's words help. WRT whether you can counsel on your own, I'll confess I've got my doubts. Given that I've read your posts throughout this long period, I still get the impression that your H might find it better if he has a safe space with a challenging counsellor. I think he needs someone other than you challenging him.

When H went for counselling, I felt the counsellor and I were working as a team. My H is right when he says that the sessions provided a springboard for our longer discussions, but I'm not sure I'd have got there on my own. Reading Shirley Glass also really helped - it is yet another (very qualified) person speaking the same sense.

I still have the feeling that your H is in denial, especially if he has said himself that he is a slow reader. You know yourself, if you're interested in a book - you read compulsively.

I understand the travelling distance problem, but preseumably that only applies to you going together. I think your H needs to see someone on his own, on a regular basis. It will take effort and commitment, but I really do think it's worth it.

Do come back if you have any more questions.

Gosh. I wish somebody was (had ever been) honoured by my presence!

abedelia, it is difficult for a strayed partner (man or woman) to appreciate just how much damage has been done, and how much reparation is needed. To complicate things further: some betrayed partners need all the detail, while others don't want to hear it. The only 'rules' that work are: You must tell him what you need to heal; He must simply accept you know what you need, and help you by providing it.

It's a drudge. It's quite hard. It can, definitely, lead to a whole new, better marriage for you both. I wish you & DH the very best.

Thanks all - and so many thanks to wwifn's H. H has never once claimed it was all the OW's fault so we have a good starting point there BUT he does buy into the 'I deluded myself that we wouldn't have a PA when we met but she made it very clear that's what she wanted from the start' - almost the same words! Though he did say later that he was so caught up in the idea of it being a grand romance that if he'd stepped back and for a moment considered it rationally he would not have met with her because it was obvious how it would end up. But she did play him expertly too - introducing a competitor male once she realised H was hooked, saying they should cool the EA as she didn't want to make trouble with our marriage then backing down the next day, etc, then finally introducing excuses about her travel arrangements to make him change the area they were planning to meet and also his hotel he'd booked for business so he wasn't sharing a room with or anywhere near his business partner... So I think he has come to a lot of this on his own (well, through my probing questions!) already - her playing plus his own expectation here, as an example.

He has also become a better person - he recognises a lot of it was that he took me for granted and was a very selfish person with almost EA tendencies. And he hates what he became and how he failed himself. So I'm doing it because there are bits he doesn't understand - such as the distancing process - that confuse him still, but which I understand because frankly I have a bit of an obsessive personality and have made it my business to leave no stone unturned and make sure he is aware of absolutely everything.

Regarding counselling, unfortunately we are dependant on money from something only he can do in his company and can't afford time out as a competitor is nipping at our heels and unless H produces something 'new' soon we will be in danger (don't want to give too much of RL away but he simply DOESNT have time and I understand).

But thanks again. I think I need to 'give 'Shirl' another whirl', as it were, and get to it. Because if I'm not satisfied that everything is out in the open and he has full grasp - for both our sakes, actually, there's no point being together, is there?

Ugh - should re-read as that post makes it seem like I am covering for and excusing him. I am certainly not! There are many things where he realised he led it on, upping the ante in emails etc...

Just a thought. - What about telephone counselling? I know that you can do this with RELATE. I expect there may be others that do it too.

Gosh, Mr WWIFN is lovely, isn't he? Human and flawed, as are we all, but - sticking my neck out here - yes, just about lovely enough to deserve WWIFN.

Hi abedelia, have you actually spelt out what you need from him. My DH refused to get into any indepth conversations for a long while because a lot of what he had previously told me were lies and there were a lot of omissions. He used the excuse of work (true - had to turn business around because of his behaviour) but I actually said to him in the end that I couldn't continue in the marriage until he started to open up and talk about the affair. He talked about his behaviour, what things lead up to the affair and how it happened but not about the affair itself.

It has only been in the last couple of months that he has started opening up and by doing that, we have both been able to analyse what message he was giving to OW, what he did and how he was not mantipulated, how he engineered things to a certain extent. It has probably been more painful for him - he has only recently acknowledge that his behaviour amounted to arrogance as well.

We went away this weekend (a year to the day when he first had sex with OW - so trying to replace the bad memory for me), he really struggled and then acknowledge that he was thinking back to that time and what happened etc. To cap it all, on the way back we stopped off in a city outside where we live and we bumped into OW's 14 yr old son. He was obviously pleased to see my DH and my H said hello but couldn't get away quick enough (by then I had guessed who the boy was). My H felt really bad for me, for the boy and then for our DC as, he said, for that 6 week period last year he put that boy before his own DSs. I said to him that yes he and OW behaved appalling to all the DC involved but it was down to her to explain to her son why you couldn't have any contact with them etc.

I asked him to read WWIFN's DH's post and he said he couldn't deal with that now and I just said, well maybe I couldn't deal with bumping into OW's son on our "healing" weekend but I just had to "suck it up". He apologised and admitted to still getting very defensive about it all. I feel he is only just beginning to really emphasise with me and understanding my feelings.

I get why he did it, understand the reasons behind it all but I really struggle to understand HOW he could do it to me and the DC IYSWIM. But I feel that is something I am going to have to learn to live with. He likens it to putting your hand in a flame, you are drawn to it, know it is going to be extremely painful but you can't stop yourself - in other words he is still trying to understand it all himself still. That said, he says it could never happen again, he understands the "walls and windows" and appropriate boundaries etc. And the fallout has been extremely painful for all concerned.

Sorry for the waffle. I am working on myself still, to build my own self esteem - if I feel better then nothing else seems as bad.

Wow counting, yep, that's where we're at to a tee - you just put it better... He has learned a lot but is still very defensive and I have now internally reached a point where I know that things cannot go on. I have narrowly sidestepped pnd (mainly caused by this issue), and that was the final straw (don't worry - the AND got me, or maybe I was just depressed from earlier). I don't want to hate myself forever or forever doubt my own judgement (part of the reason I at first would not have realised he was distancing was that at times he could be absolutely vile to me anyway, something he has fixed.) I just want to be ME again, not a miserable shell because someone else's choices have ruined my life. And right now I have realised that internally I have been distancing myself from him and mentally preparing to go it alone because I can't live with it anymore - even though I want the new H to be part of my future, really.

I feel he has fixed his behaviour and looked at himself in some ways but not others. I've just paid for an online Relate session for myself, to help me find a way to approach his defensiveness. He knows something is wrong as he keeps asking but I'm not quite ready to talk until I can do so in the right way. Wish me luck... Also, he has a typing speed of about 90wpm so has no excuse if online Relate works out ok!

I've been thinking about you this weekend Counting and hoping that things went well and that you woud be able to replace a horrible memory with a good one. What awful luck bumping into OW's son - that must have been so difficult. As a Mum I'll bet part of you felt sorry for the lad (on many counts!) but it can't have helped matters

It occurred to me this morning reading Counting's post that when we were at the 12 month post-discovery point, H tried to write an account of it all, but when he tried, the words wouldn't come. Whereas yesterday, he was able to write a lot and spent a considerable amount of time. It was painful, he cried - but he won't shy away from that pain now. Even a year on, I think there was still some denial and an unwillingness to submit to the pain of it all. So Counting and Abedelia, keep plugging away, keep asking for what you need and don't ever be afraid to do that.

A few good questions to ask in these situations are:

"Why don't you want to understand this?"
"What are you doing to help you understand this?"
"What is your understanding of why this happened?"

I genuinely think true progress is only made when the motivation comes from the betraying spouse - when they realise that it's actually more important that they understand their behaviour. But it can take a long time to get to that point - and I think it's normal in the aftermath that betrayers pay a bit of lip service to it, always doing things at your request, when it would be healthier if the analysis were self-generated.

FWIW, I also think that in our three cases, what hasn't helped is the "cringe" factor, in relation to the type of person they all got involved with. I know that my H felt appallingly embarrassed that he hadn't seen through some of OW's ludicrous lies - and for a long time, couldn't understand how he'd ever thought of her as a nice person - so I think the embarrassment of being such a lousy judge of character fuels denial to an extent.

Abedelia, I would second Coper's suggestion of telephone counselling - and like everything in life, whether it's reading Shirley Glass, reading my DH's post, making a phone call or going to a counsellor, if there's enough motivation to do something, there is always time.

Counting, you are right to be sceptical of your H's defensiveness, but that can, must and probably will change, as long as you hold out for what you need. You could perhaps explain to your Hs that the day you give up trying to get answers is the day they should really be worried, because that will mean you will have lost hope and might have disengaged.

Thank you Annie - your words mean a lot. H has been a bit anxious about how he will be interpreted on this site - think it was a bit of a risk for him, which I appreciate. I didn't change a word of what he'd written, as I felt it had to be his honest account.

Unfortunately, all his punctuation got lost with the cut and paste from Word....gah!!

I just wanted to add my thanks to whenwill's husband. A lot there to think about.

Whenwill - do tell him how much it means to strangers on an Internet site that he wrote.

Yes we had a lovely weekend (although DH had trouble sleeping and admitted it could have been to do with him thinking back to last year etc). The irony of bumping into OW's son wasn't lost on me although it could have been worse, she could have been with him and I was not looking my best eg very wet with no make up on .

I felt really sorry for the lad, I don't know if he was ever told the ins and outs of his mother's and my DH's relationship and he has special needs as well. OW and her extended family were like something out of an episode of Shameless and by DH probably gave this lad more attention in those 6 weeks than he had had in a lifetime from his mother etc. Essentially my DH does have a kind heart but, as I pointed out, it was not his job to "rescue them" etc.

I think my DH was more bothered by the meeting than I was. Again made him realise how selfish and self centred he and the OW were at the time. My DH has apologised to our DC for what he did etc but seeing that lad made him realise those DC were caught up in it too.

Whilst we were having lunch yesterday U2's song, Stuck in a moment, came on and made me and my DH think - I have a tendancy to get "stuck in a moment and can't get out of it" - and I think that's probably what Abedelia and I both do. Sometimes it is very hard to get past the hurt but we have to .....

WhenwillI - interesting what you say about disengaging. He knows now when I am upset and thinking about things and has been saying 'are you okay, you know I love you' when he sees me like that. I do think if I turned round and said "i'm not Ok because of X reason" he'd be defensive about having to drag it up so I have been suppressing and yes, also disengaging by spending a lot of time with a friend who is a single mum. I realised when talking to her yeaterday that for ages I'd been sucking up info on how she coped alone because at the back of my mind this was starting to be my plan, when really I don't want that. It just seemed the easiest way to cope...

Honestly, if I knew who Mr whenwiilI was in RL I would buy the man a few large drinks (with your blessing of course ;) !) I want my H to be like that and hopefully with work we can get there in time.

I think Abedelia a lot of what you are talking about is having honest communication with each other. I now tell my DH what I am thinking if he asks if I am OK eg No I am not because I am thinking about such and such etc. I have been really struggling the last few weeks because of the anniversaries etc and have been turning inward to protect myself from the awful memories/flashbacks/obsessions and DH did say at one point over the weekend that he thought he was "losing me". I just kept saying I was feeling awful and I need to know this/that, what you did then, what were you thinking then, did you think about me at all when you did that etc. He has made more of an effort as he did realise I was struggling. By answering my questions, he has had to acknowledge some pretty awful truths and I have had to come to terms with them too.

He found some emails that we exchanged during that 2/3 month period last year, he couldn't read any more after the first couple as he said, I was so wanting to try and sort things out etc, and he was so vile back to me, refusing to acknowledge anything, blaming me for everything etc. To see it in black and white and realising his mindset at that time horrified him and shamed him.

If I am honest I still want to talk about everything, 24/7 IYKWIM. I also think that by disengaging ourselves a little, we are protecting ourselves, subconsciously, from further hurt - knowing the state I was in last year, nobody is going to do that to me again.