i don't want to go home

[twinklesky]

I've posted a few times on before about my relationship issues with my partner. I just need some advice, I don't have anywhere else to turn

Partner is taking IDAP course, has become increasingly depressed after losing his job in December. We have money issues which are mainly my fault as I should have been in charge of finances.

Am I being stupid or is this completely unfair and tending towards falling back into the controlling tendancies that landed him in IDAP in the first place? Or am I just bitter and twisted?

He asked me to pay the virgin bill before i went to work, as we had some money from my grandmother, meant to be paying our car insurance.

I told him I didn't buy some amazing shoes today because I was saving the money for the insurance, couldn't he wait until tomorrow when I get paid?

He told me since it doesn't matter anyway, I should just pay it, and if I didn't he was going to get pissed while I was at work (and he is looking after our son) All his violence happened when he was drinking. He knows I'll do anything to avoid him drinking. He says this is 'controlling' and he knows ALL about controlling behvaiour because he's been on the course.

I paid it because I was scared he would get drunk and be abusive.

Then he said "Leave me a ciggie, since you gave the last one to the baby" I didn't give a cigarette to my son, OBVIOUSLY. I placed it on our highest shelf and whilst I was getting ready for work and OH was playing xbox, baby climbed up on to OH's back and grabbed the ciggie and snapped it in half.

Should I just let him get over the anger he has about our debt? Is he justified? WAS I being controlling?

Grace has summed up the aggressive/ submissive/ assertive thing better than I could have done and she is right when she says that he doesn't sound committed to changing his behaviour.

I completely understand your lack of faith in the system, I work in the system and don't have much faith to be honest however it's the only system we've got and it can work well sometimes. I have seen positive results from IDAP and other programmes I promise you. Can you get back in touch with the womens safety worker? Or the probation officer? The job of a Probation Officer is, among other things, to "protect the public" and that means YOU. They will be able to assure you that your information will not get back to him without your permission, they understand the risks to you and do not want to exacerbate them at all. If you tell me the area you are in I'll get you a phone number.

Of course I can't say what his PO has actually said however it is unlikely that they said that he didn't need to do the group, he's chosen to tell you that to make you feel powerless and to prevent you from contacting the office and exposing him. The thing about IDAP or any programme that aims to change problemtic behaviour is that there needs to be some buy in from the subject. He has to want it to some degree and it doesn't sound much like he does, as he has got through the 20 odd sessions so far and has managed only to take away the 'how to be more controlling' aspects of it which of course is not the point. He's probably telling them how well he's doing at home and how happy you all are and unless you tell them otherwise they can't help.

Have you heard of the freedom programme?
www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/

I doubt very much any professional would tell your OH that he wasn't entirely to blame. My Ex DP would say the same to me, that the councellor was on his side, sympathised with me, that everyone gets wound up and that he took htat to mean i was to blame for his behaviour. Its just another way of not facing up to their own behaviour and trying to control you by implying or directly saying its your fault.

I was hesitant this time last year and ended up calling the police last easter. It was horrible and he tried to blame me too. But you have to remember you are reacting to his behaviour and dont let him guilt trip you.

My ex is on a programme with Triangle I dont know anything about it and am about to find out.

I finally left in November and its been hard but so much easier than living like that day to day. I haad all the same advice that you are getting now when I posted on this site and I found it hard to take as I didn't want to give up on the hope he would change. In the end I had to do for my sake and my DD's. Its only been 3
months but these have been the best 3 months of my DD;s life. She and i have been so happy and done so many fun things all without the daily stess and dread of going home. she used to cry when she realised we were on our way home (back to his house). Now its hard to get her out as she loves it here and feels comfortable, secure and safe.

Oh guys

It all seems so simple when read here at work in black and white, surrounded by normal people.

I just don't know who I am anymore...

ItsGraceAgain I read what you put as your first example. I have tried this many, many a time, telling I can't talk to him while he's shouting, please don't shout there is no need, I can't accept you shouting at me.

His always response is "For god's sake you are so pathetic, it's not like I'm hitting you is it, everyone shouts, in an arguement. You are just ridiculous and want to make yourself a victim"

Sorry for the double post.

I think that the thing I am looking for here is the magic word that will stop him doing this sort of thing, the magical way to see what he is doing to my self-esteem and my soul. The worst thing is I can see that actually, if I did have a sense of humour about it I probably wouldn't get annoyed with him so much.

Today he was on the phone to his brother and asked me for some petrol money. I said I couldn't and made a silly face at him. He got pissed off and said into the phone. "Well she won't because she has an ugly face"

Afterwards I told him this was not acceptable, that I would prefer if he has to insult me I would prefer he did not in front of other people. He told me he was 'joking'. It didn't feel like a joke but I don't have a choice but to accept it.

It feels like all these tiny incidents are adding up in my brain but for him they are over as soon as they have begun. He can't see how things continue to affect me past the point of him forgetting about it. Maybe I should just take things less seriously, maybe people do shout when they argue. I don't have the self-belief to recognise whether I AM shouting back at him just the same amount...whether I raise my voice first...

Sorry, I'm sort of ranbling now.

Twinklesky, this man is not going to change and stop being abusive to you because he doesn't want to. He thinks that he is more important than you, and you should stop whining and obey him, then he wouldn't 'need' to hit you or shout at you.
This is of course bullshit. He's an inadequate loser who tries to make himself feel better by bullying you. It;s unfortunate you seem to have the sort of family who have taught you that men matter more than women and it's a woman's job to keep her man happy no matter how unreasonable his demands. That's bullshit too by the way. You are just as important a human being as he is.
Either the course he is doing is rubbish, or he is simply not trying (more likely the latter). It won't get better until you get rid of him and you are TOTALLY ENTITLED TO DO SO. His behaviour is UNACCEPTABLE and it's HIS FAULT that your relationship is ending.

Twinklesky, how are you today? Please continue to post as you're getting some really good advice here which will help you enormously

Glad you posted back, Twinklesky. It's good to hear that you're OK - sort of

I realise you have understood this, I just want to repeat it:-
You say, I want you to stop shouting. It's up to him what he does with this information. That is, if he cares about what you want - he will stop shouting.
If he doesn't care about you or your feelings, or your hearing - he'll carry on shouting.
The only difference is, now he knows you want him to tone it down. So he has chosen to carry on, never mind what you want.
In fact, he has chosen to carry on doing something he knows is upsetting you. It's deliberate.
He is now deliberately hurting you.

I know you hope he will care about what you want. I know you settled with somebody you love, expecting that he would care about you - and want to not hurt you. The hardest thing for you to get your head round is this: He doesn't care how you feel; he wants to hurt you (as seen above). It's a horrible thought for you; it goes against everything you chose when you chose him; it goes against normality.

People who love you care about your feelings. People who love you want to comfort you when you hurt, not hurt you more.

You want him to "change" - to become someone who loves you. If he did that, you could forget that you'd been wrong about him. Listen: There's no shame in being wrong. It's likely he tricked you anyway. You can just say to yourself and your DC: "Oops, made a mistake there! Time to clear off and love ourselves properly, he's never going to!"

Then at least you will be free to love one another, take care of yourselves - and to meet new people who are capable of loving you. Read what messymissy said about her past 3 months with DD. Does that sound better than what you've got?

You can't change him, my love. He likes hurting you. He keeps proving that. Your only choice is to decide whether you like being hurt ...

Thought I ought to add - I know this because I've made the same mistake (more than once - it took me a long time to learn). Lots of people do, especially women. It's not "bad" to be mistaken, it's just unlucky.

I posted to a forum once; this was a while back, there weren't forums like this one. I wrote about how I was 'pushing away' my H by being upset about things he did & said. I used to cry, shout back, that sort of thing. He told me I was unreasonable. I thought I must be.

Somebody replied: He hurt your feelings. If he loved you, he would care about your feelings. She said: Everybody's feelings deserve respect, including yours.
And that was when I started learning what I know now.

From your post of yesterday, NO, a sense of humour on your part would NOT help you to handle his abuse better!

He is still absolutely determined to dominate you. He doesn't want to change, and he isn't going to. Sorry. I've spent time wishing for a magic wand myself, but you can't fix this.

' He asked me for some petrol money. I said I couldn't and made a silly face at him. He got pissed off and said into the phone. "Well she won't because she has an ugly face" '
Oh, that's a funny joke

What are you supposed to do? Let's imagine you aren't intimidated by him & your confidence hasn't been knocked out of shape. The only 'humorous' riposte I can think of is "I won't because you've got an ugly face"

Dunno about you, but I'm not falling off my chair laughing. In fact, it sounds to me like playground jeers between two children who dislike each other.

ItsGraceAgain

I can see exactly what you are saying. I'm guessing I'm finding it hard to accept that maybe the issue doesn't lie with me. He accuses me constantly of undoing all the work that IDAP have done by not forgetting the past and moving on.

It's a valid point, I DID promise to give him another chance and I don't think I am doing that really...but I know that is really what is likely to happen in these situations. It IS hard to let things go.

SolidGoldBrass

Thank you for not beating around the bush. You are completely right. Like I've said, it seems so obvious when I am here at work and not faced with him.

Things haven't been as bad the last few days, yesterday he made a big speech about how he loves me and thank you for paying for his insurance and car tax etc. Which was nice...and now he's taken the baby and gone to stay at his mums so I can get a decent nights sleep. He's not all evil...I think that is what makes it harder to see what is happening to me. Next week when we are arguing I'll say "I can see quite clearly from the way you are treating me that you don't care about my feelings, and I don't want to be with someone who doesn't care about my feelings.' And he'll say " Oh well I took the baby off so you can have a good nights sleep and I said thank you blah blah" And I won't be able to argue with that.

It's funny really as all my old friends would have said I was the most arguementative person I know, but he twists everyone around so ferociously that I often can't remember what I was trying to say in the first place./ Then when say, why are you twisting things, I wasn't trying to say that, he'll accuse me of being paranoid and not letting go of the past.

I know there is no magic wand, but I thought IDAP would be it and I'm so, so sad that is doesn't seem to have helped just pushed things below the surface.

hi twinkle, I realise this is against most of the advice you have had and I don't know any of your history from earlier postings.
But......you don't really sound like you want to leave him, so I just wanted to say why not accept that you can't change him and use all that energy on changing yourself. If you had a bit more confidence and self respect you wouldn't let him treat you like this.
Stand up for yourself and concentrate on making a life for yourself and baby despite his behaviour.
He sounds like a bully and the only way with these guys is to show no fear, you never know he might even start to have a bit more respect for you. Good luck.

twinklesky

I would try and get yourself onto the Freedom programme mentioned earlier by another poster.

All this guy is now doing is projecting his issues onto you; a common tactic used by abusive men.

I think he will eventually kill you if you were to stay with him (I write that in all seriousness) and he is certainly no decent role model for your son to look up to.

Two women per week on average in the UK are killed at the hands of their partner and or ex; do not become such a statistic.

Gingerteam: I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about and your advice is unhealthy. 'Standing up for yourself' when you are living with an abuser makes the abuser resort to violence, end of.

Twinklesky: what he;s doing is the classic example of why most perpetrator programmes are a waste of time - the abuser says 'Look, I'm a good boy, I've been on the programme. Now you have to forgive me instantly and if you ever dare to criticize my past behaviour I'm going to start shouting and hitting you again and it's YOUR FAULT for provoking me' (rather than understanding that he is responsible for his own behaviour and he has NO RIGHT to hit you or shout at you or cause you distress on purpose. YOU are not an object, you are not a disobedient dog he can kick when he feels like it, you are a human being entitled to courtesy and respect. Basically these programmes just give abusers more abuse tools and enable them to subjugate their victims still further - the victim gets told 'I've been fixed, there's nothing wrong with me, all the abuse is your fault, there;s something wrong with you, real women don't get beaten because they obey their husbands.'

Well, I may be significantly more moderate that Atilla & SGB in this case, but I have to agree Gingerteam is talking a load of dangerous twaddle. Perhaps you think the OP has always been a timid little wreck - and perhaps you think an IDAP is a cookery course?

There are people in this world, whose sense of personal worth rests on how much power they hold over others. Many of those people are men, and many of them exert a programme of sustained intimidation against their wives and girlfriends. These campaigns follow a predictable pattern: the techniques they employ are the same as those used by interrogators, the world over, to break down their subjects. Such men see women purely as useful objects. If you've encountered one of them, and succeeded in maintaining a 'healthy' relationship with him, it was certainly because he wanted something from you - money, perhaps, or social standing - more than he wanted power over you.

Twinkle, when I commented that your parents' attitude may have bestowed you with qualities that appealed to your partner's power-hunger, I didn't mean at all that you "asked for" abuse. I really hope you didn't take it that way! Nasty people can always find a "handle" to control their chosen victims; your parents' passivity gave a clue as to where he found your handle (Mine was believing I must please everyone.)

Boosting your own confidence can only be a good thing - in your case, I hope a little more confidence will help you see how much more happily you can live without this emotional & financial bloodsucker ;)

This is an inspiring book: "Ultimate Confidence" by Marisa Peer. You might want to take a look round some Assertiveness websites, like this one.

Please keep posting

This is such a sad thread, but one I can empathise with. You're obviously an intelligent and rational woman and can understand what is happening here. However he has done a real number on you and his and your parents really aren't helping. They are trying to isolate you so that you only hear his point of view.

His argument that he's the least violent on the course (and he says this as a badge of honour) and that he's not that bad is all about minimising your feelings. You said you'd give him another chance and you have. Enough is enough.

My ex was like this and I know from experience it only gets worse. I left six months ago on my third attempt and DD and I are so much happier. Funnily enough he is managing to cope very well without me, despite all the protestations of love and the public displays, similar to yours taking DS away for a night.

Please call Women's Aid as the others have suggested.

Gingerteam:
Whilst I partly resent your obvious implication that I have brought this on myself by not having enough self respect, I can see that you don't have the experience or knowledge of the situation that a lot of other posters do have. So I appreciate your advice but I won't be taking it.
ItsGraceAgain
I didn't think that from what you said anyway! I think what I was saying is that after months and months, even years (we've been together four years) of having his behaviour minimized by all around me, it's very...weird to come on here and have it taken so very seriously. I've spent the best part of two years being told that I'm crazy, I'm paranoid, I can't let things go.
I think he did originally see me as useful, to helping him break out of the destructive pattern he was in, to boost his confidence etc. We moved into together very quickly and since then I have felt like my entire life is tangled up with him. Since having a child (a lovely accident) it has become more apparent that he is not with me out of love, but simply because he adores his son and doesn't want to walk out on us, because he believes that I would make it difficult for him to see DS, which I wouldn't. I think the strain of being with someone who he doesn't love or respect is what causes his outbursts, maybe...
It's not that I don't think I deserve better, I just can't imagine my life without him. I feel like I would be half a person.
QueenOfWhatever,
I hadn't considered that him saying that could be seen as minimization. That's another one I get told about a lot. If I try to defend myself against anything he says, I'm minimizing. If he actually does, he's defending himself. I really feel that this and the distinction between aggression and assertion should be made much clearer.
Another one we've had this week is that IDAP are only there to prevent VIOLENT behaviour. shouting, arguing and name calling are all part of having a relationship with someone and there?s NO point in my speaking to my support worker about it because IDAP just don't want violent reoffenders :/

Hi twinklesky, I never meant to imply that you have no self respect. You appear very strong. My only wish for you is that you concentrate your energy on to yourself and your baby to try to change things for yourself despite his behaviour not because of it.
I never meant for you to confront him and incite more abuse.
As you know I am not familiar with your history and may be a bit naive but...... do you want to leave him? If so you don't sound determined enough to carry it out yet so my (best intentioned) advice is to ignore, steel yourself against, his actions as much as possible and start to lay the foundations of a life without him making it easier for you to do the deed when "you" choose.
I am thinking about you and wishing you well.

Hi twinklesky. I'm pleased that you're getting some good advice from people who have experience of your situation.

Just thought I would comment on your last bit that said "IDAP are only there to prevent VIOLENT behaviour. shouting, arguing and name calling are all part of having a relationship with someone". What he has said is 100% false and he has made that up completely. IDAP aims to work on all aspects of abuse including all the emotional stuff that you have discussed in this thread. In fact it focuses on that probably MORE than direct physical violence. This and this are two of the key pieces of material used on the programme. Also check out www.theduluthmodel.org/index.php for general info on the background to IDAP.

Of course the subtler forms of domestic abuse, whilst completely out of order, are not necessarily a crime. For example name calling is not always punishable by law and the Probation Service only gets people through the doors if they have committed a crime, therefore some people would think that this is where the intervention stops. That is not true; the aim is to reduce all forms of abusive behaviour and not just "prevent crimes".

I am very certain that he is either a) not paying any attention at IDAP or b) deliberatly using his attendance to screw with you. I would suggest that he is only going to avoid getting into further trouble with the Court. It's pointless. The programme can work well but not when the man chooses to disregard the content of the course and the help that he is being offered.

Sorry if I've been rambling but I thought that some more info about the programme could help you. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Gingerteam:

No worries, I just felt that was how it came across. I mean, obviously, there is clearly SOMETHING wrong with my self-respect or I would have simply walked away the first time I saw his rage. It confounds me that I didn't. I guess you could say that I don't have the confidence to be on my own now, maybe? The thought of being on my own scares me a lot, but when he does go out or stay at his mums, which is becoming increasingly frequent, I just feel free...like I can breathe and not have to tread on eggshells or not say what I am thinking in case it's 'ridiculous' as most of what I say seems to be.

superchick

I am greatly interested in reading about IDAP. I have to say I had never heard of it until OH was convicted. It was, at the time, what I had been hoping for and I saw it as the magical formula that would change our relationship forever.

I think that it HAS helped him control his anger better. But it's also taught him that the reason not to hit a woman is because otherwise you will go to jail. I seriously believe that further counselling would be needed to change his mindset, because right now I feel like the second class citizen in our home and our relationship, and that's obviously come from his upbringing.

His mum never taught her sons how to change the bedsheets or use the washing machine, but she did teach her daughter. His Dad was away for work a lot and I think he sees it that the women should be at home and the man out working.

I really appriciate the advice you are all giving me, and I'm going to go and read up about IDAP now.

Shouting and name calling are not a normal part of relationships. Even I know that and I could have written the book on being controlled and bullied.

I think it is essential that you speak to the Womens Support Worker and Probation Officer as soon as possible, especially as he has only got one module left. It sounds like the course has just taught him new ways to manipulate you and 'evidence' as to how much worse others are. The stuff he is telling you is blatantly wrong.

It sounds like you are not getting a wide enough range of views on him (except Mumsnet!). Do you have friends or colleagues you can talk to in RL? You would be amazed to realise how much they will help and support you, and, yes, believe you. He really sounds pretty extreme, you can't let him finish the course and then everything is suddenly 'OK'.

Twinklesky, none of this is your fault. You seem like such a sweetheart, I really wish you were not stuck with an abuser.

You are in a really difficult one. Your parents are of no help, you do not seem to be able to talk to anybody aside from MN. He has completely confused you and he is a dangerous man. Just look at your reaction to Gingerteam's comment - first you tell her how you won't be taking her advice. Others posters have been a lot harsher, but you excuse her silly comment before you even get angry about it - you show her understanding instead. When she sort of apologises, you immediately say: 'No worries ... I mean, obviously, there is clearly SOMETHING wrong with my self-respect or I would have simply walked away the first time I saw his rage.' You are so used to blaming yourself for things that happen to you, you do it automatically. This is not meant as a criticism, this is meant as an illustration of what you partner has done to you. None of it is your fault. It is not your fault.

I suffered quite a lot of abuse as a child and when I started therapy I really did not know who I was. It took a lot of time to un-learn all the behaviour I internalised in order to avoid violence/please my parents/survive as a child. But it is possible to come out on the other side. You know that churning feeling in your stomach you get when he is around? Imagine never feeling that again. I have a lot of faith in you and you deserve all the help you can get. Please contact Women's Aid Officers.

As for other people resenting you for seeking support, that really is their problem. His family's opinions? Well, they can try being shouted at and threatened with violence by him. Even if that is normal to them, it really does not have to be for you. Please, open up up someone who does not take his side - you will be amazed how many of your friends will offer support. Those who do not don't deserve your time. If you can, find a counsellor. It makes a world of difference.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

Hi Twinklesky, thankfully I have no advice to offer you, just hoping you are ok and coping with your situation.

Twinklesky, he is making up all that stuff he told you about the course.

Have you ever read a book by Lundy Bancroft "Why Does He Do That?". It deals with angry and controlling men and why most courses like IDAP don't work even with the best will in the world on the part of those who run them.

The 'nice' side that he shows occasionally is just the other side of the same scary coin you're familiar with. The nice side gives him a break too, because the level of venom and hostility he can muster up to use against you takes energy and concentration. It also serves to keep you confused, and to keep you hoping that since he can clearly behave ok when he wants to, maybe he'll do it one day because you want him to. This kind of optimism is not your friend. It is in fact your worst enemy.

Really and truly, he will kill you one day -- he sounds completely cynical and smart and persistent enough to achieve whatever he wants to. And once your DS gets to the point where he's not a sweet little adoring fan of daddy's, your H will lay into him too with viciousness and violence, or worse still, he will poison your precious child against you and use him to hurt you too. It will be terrible for your child if you don't get you and him out. None of what he is seeing and being exposed to right now is good for him. Devote your life to the aim of getting out, Twinklesky. This is all that matters. Your H will not change. Nothing you do will make him change. He does not love you and he does not love your DS.