Think I want out, but feeling so guilty for the dc's...

[scarlotti]

Have posted before re the state of my marriage. Have pretty much come to the realisation that things are never going to change, no matter how many talks we have and so if I want the life I want to live then we will have to separate.
Thing is I now feel so guilty about it as am sure that he won't want to separate, mainly as it would take him away from the dc's on a daily basis. He's told me that in the past he's considered leaving but stayed as he couldn't leave the dc's.
DD (15) is his step-dd so obviously stays with me, DS1(4) and DS2(>1) would stay with me too as he can't afford to keep the house going and I wouldn't let them go. He could see them as often as he wanted.
Guess I just feel wretched that I would be the one to take their father away.
We are on the Relate waiting list and hopefully some sessions will come through soon, but I'm not sure I want it to work out anymore. Am so tired of having to do it all and having no support, and I don't believe that this will ever change. It would almost be easier if things were absolutley awful (violent or abusive) as then it would be cut and dried. I guess so many men seem to be lazy and selfish (am sure many are not too) that I then wonder if that's just the way life should be?
I have no delusions about life as a single parent as I've done that before. Anyway, I do almost everything now so it will almost be easier as I won't have to look at someone who should be pulling their weight but isn't iyswim.
DD does her gcse's this summer and DS1 starts school in sept. I'm worried that I might mess things up for them. H is selfish and that's one of the reasons I want out, but isn't my taking their father away a selfish thing to do?

Sorry, long and babbling now - if anyone can give any advice it would be gratefully recieved.

Hi

I really feel for you.

I was in exactly the same position as you. My H and I didn't really get on, but apart from being emotionally abusive during rows we got on OK in the "Inbetween" parts, to the point that although I thought about leaving I felt I couldn't do it to my DS (The same thing happened to me when I was the same age!).

Then I found that he had been having an affair (Not saying for one minute that your H is) and it made the final descision easier. I felt that it was the final straw, and it gave me the strength to tell him it was over. He moved out in Jan, and like you, when he was living with me, he was lazy and unresponsive etc, so I now feel as though a weight has been lifted off my shoulders, and I now have no expectations of him to do anything to help.

I was also very worried about the effect it would have on our DS, as he loves his Daddy so much, and is a very sensitive little one, but I have to say so far he's been OK, he did find it odd to start off with, but has now adapted to "Daddys house" and home, and at the moment he is having the best of both worlds, and both my H and I are giving him more attention, and the awful atmosphere has gone. It is early days at the moment, but so far it is OK.

I also agonised over the split because of my DS, but you also have to do what is right for you and your life - the old saying "You only live once" used to race around my brain all of the time.

My H is now seeing my DS more than he did before, and it is much more quality time rather than the old days when he just sat in front of the TV all day long.

We are also going to relate, and although it is good, I feel as though I am "emotionally finished" with the marriage, so I am using it as a platform to tell him how I feel without him calling me all the names, or walking out, and it is doing us some good, as we are acting more as friends now whereas before it was row after row after row then silence...!

Anyhow enough of my rambling on - I hope you get to relate and decide what you want to do.

sadperson123, thanks so much for your reply. So many things ring true for me in your post, especially the sitting in front of the tv all day with ds which drives me mad. Glad to hear you feel much happier now and your ds is doing well.

It took me a long long time, and some pretty damming evidence to make the break though, and my H still thinks I just need some time and all will be forgotten. I on the other hand, feel much more free and happy, so I can't see any beneifts of getting back together (well apart from the social standing, and my DS having the "Normal" Mum and Dad family), but that really isn't everything.

I never ever wanted to be in this position, and believe me I've struggled, but it came to a point where enough was enough, and I am so glad I did make the decision.

I think something will eventually happen, and you will snap, either that or your DH will sit up and listen to how unhappy you are and make som significant changes.

I knew my H couldn't change, and that for him to change into the man I wanted, would make him an unhappy person, but me being what he wanted was making me miserable.

All our friends say that neither of us are bad people, just not good together. We have managed 11 years together, and some of the times have been very happy, but once children come along you put your DC first, and I think men can't accept this shift of affection.

Is your DH good at communication ? maybe you could make a meal and try to talk to him, or write him a letter. I did all of these things, they didn't work for me, but I know it's very successful for others.

Take care

scarlotti - I don't think you're being selfish, but you might want to think about the timing of the break-up and also whether this really is over for you.

A good starting point is to ask yourself honestly, if your DH changed radically and stopped being selfish and lazy, would you be willing to give it another try? If the answer to that is "no, it's really too late" and you are sure that's how it is, then it's just a question of parting as amicably as you can, at an appropriate time in the children's lives. Relate will help you with this, so those sessions will not be wasted.

If, on the other hand, you think that if only he made some changes that if sustained, would change your feelings towards him and the marriage, then perhaps have a think about a different kind of conversation to the ones you've perhaps had before.

Tell him what you've said here - that you've completely lost faith in him and the marriage and you want to part. That you see the Relate sessions as a means to help you part well. Sometimes people in this situation need a really drastic shock and threat, in order to change - and this could be his moment.

If you think your DD would be adversely affected by such an upheaval on the run-up to her GCSEs, then I'd be inclined to treat the Relate sessions as time-buying sessions until June when the exams will be over - it's not that long a time to wait, while you can research alternative living and parenting arrangements.

For your marriage to be saved (if it's not too late) your DH has really got to believe he's lost you. If he wants to keep you and the marriage, he will make those changes.

Giving priority to your needs isn't being selfish. Staying together for the sake of the kids could end up being far more damaging to them than leaving and being a happier more content mother to them.

Try not to feel guilty, you would not be being the best role model to your kids if you stayed in an unhappy relationship and they would not thank you for it.

whenwillifeelnormal - thanks for your post, you make a lot of sense and have certainly given me food for thought. I think from what you've said the relate sessions will help whichever angle I'm coming from.

overmydeadbody - am not used to putting my needs first at all so it feels strange and I guess then my first reaction is that it's wrong. However, I think you're right in that the dc's deserve a happy Mum not a stressy one.

Hello scarlotti I'm here!

Well, you know my situation. This time last year you were worried about similar things and then it seemed to get better. I'm guessing he saw it as a temporary fix and you hoped it was a permanent change? I know that one all too well!

With the PA thing, can I ask a couple of things, firstly when he says he'll do something are you grateful?

Because it can be more than PA, it can be a self-esteem boost to them too. My H would offer to do all sorts of things, or at least readily agree to do things, and I would say, "Thanks you're a star!", but then he'd never do them.

So the pay-off for him was immediate gratification (I'm nice to him). Logically it doesn't make sense because in the end they're going to get a negative response in the end when they don't do it, but that leads into the next bit; they get attention. Lots of attention, negative and positive. You nag them and they can feel "hard done by", but they're still keeping all the focus on them. This isn't about how YOU feel about it. It's all about them.

One of the main things with PAs is that they never had any intention of doing it, they just didn't want to say no (at least that's what I think it starts off as). Then they get all this attention for it which is a pay off (of sorts).

Now I know my H isn't the best example of a "cured man" but he has done a lot to sort out his PA in the past year. Mostly involving him making an effort to see things that need doing without me pointing them out (so he won't get any attention), and me only asking once and not doing it for him (this can take some imagination especially when other people are suffering for his inactivity, but there's usually a way, like mowing everywhere except where his things are)

Sorry, I'm not really answering your question. Just wanted to point out that PA is something that can be changed with an effort by him.

But that's not actually the point here.

If you want out your DCs will be ok. I know how hard it is to think about your own needs (hence my inability to think of anything except his problems even after he's gone), but your needs translate to the DC's needs eventually. An happy mum is what they want. As you say they would see their dad as much as they want.

DS1 said to me yesterday, "Mum, you know you're doing an even better job than when dad was helping". I could have cried. He added that living without tension was a good thing too.

That's my ramble. My brain is not completely linear at the moment

Crunch thanks for popping in and for the advice. I think he might be more emotionally stunted than PA but there are definitely traits of PA there. Any progress we make is always so short lived. Mine is subtly controlling, almost so subtle as to leave you questioning whether you're imagining it. whenwillifeelnormal posted on my other thread with her perception of what's going on and she's spot on.

Bless your DS1, what a perceptive little chap he is.
My DD (15) said yesterday that DH just spreads his misery around - think the dc's are probably far more perceptive than we give them credit for.

I just now need to find the strength and the appropriate time to address the situation and tell him I want out. Have to do this for my own sanity and also so my dc's don't grow up thinking this is a normal situation.

It sounds like your DD knows exactly what is best for all of you. It's tough with the little ones, because you can't explain things to them and they can't tell you that something's wrong (other than by acting up a bit). DS2 (4) had started wetting himself again in the 2 weeks before H moved out (a silent protest to the tension I think). He was quite wound up on Monday, but we seem to be settling into a routine so quickly (and no more accidents since last week), and he seems a lot calmer now.

DD is happily oblivious to everything and is still a cheerful soul

I have analysed and analysed and analysed everything over and over and over again. Sometimes I can even talk myself into "he didn't mean to do that" or "perhaps I over-reacted in that situation", but it's actually irrelevant. The only thing that matters is "As things stand, are you happy?"

And my answer to that is a resounding "No!" If things changed I could be happy in this relationship, but H has shown he will not change without there being consequences for him. He may not change anyway, but either way I don't have to deal with it on a day to day basis, which is the thing that is most wearing.

So, having accepted my own feelings as real, here goes, "Scarlotti, wyt ti'n hapus?"

Na, Dwy'i ddim yn hapus.

And there it is. If I'm honest, I haven't been happy for a long time. It was masked for a while when we had the ttc/mc/pg things going on as I think we got caught up in all that.

Your point about analysing it all etc. is very true. I can find myself doing the same thing, but as you say the only real question is whether or not I am happy.

Now I've answered that one, I guess all that's left is to work out what to do about it. Maybe suggesting a trial separation might be an easier way of working things out?

scarlotti I think you're right. You tried last year to fix things and it didn't work. A trial separation can go one of two ways:-

1. You or he realise this wasn't to be and you both move on.

1. He gets a kick up the backside and realises he is really losing you and starts taking responsibility for things.

Carrying on as you are will just make everyone miserable.

You know I'm a sucker for always hoping number 2 turns out to be the answer But even if it's number 1, it will give you time to accept what is happening and to look forward.

The 5 stages of grief in emoticon form:-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Sadness
Acceptance

We can go through them together. I'm firmly in denial!

Yes, I think that's probably the best way forward. Not going to be an easy conversation at all as I suspect he will be quite shocked. He will know I'm not happy, but I imagine he thinks I'll just carry on this way as that's just what I do

Hopefully he won't be really difficult and obstructive for the dc's sake. DD will obviously be very aware of what's happening and I don't want him getting arsey in front of her or the boys.

Think I'm at knowing that there's a problem to sort but avoiding the confrontation required in solving it - what stage is that?

Hmm, looking at my pretty chart, could be could be.

It doesn't mean you can't work on things, but it is a line in the sand where you're stating that this is not enough and will not be tolerated.

It's only because I know how long you've been struggling with all this that I'm saying this. You've been unhappy for a very long time now.

Very true. Well, we're off down to Wales this weekend to see Mum and she suggested her having the kids for us to go for a drink so maybe I'll broach it then.
Seems harsh to just wade in and say I want to separate without him having some inkling it's coming.
Or maybe he does and I'm just presuming he doesn't as he hasn't said anything. I did ask him if he was happy the other night and he said yes ... although he's hardly going to say no if he has everything done for him and doesn't have to take responsibility for anything I guess!

That's the main problem right there. It isn't uncomfortable and stressful for them, as they can shirk it all if they don't want to do it. The fact that he is happy and you are so unhappy shows some major problems in itself.

Saying that you want a break and that you're happy to still attend Relate after you're living separately will make him have to face up to it all. It sounds like he's burying his head in the sand and hoping it'll all blow over. He needs to know that's not the case.

You can prepare him for it by saying you need to have a serious talk if you want. It shouldn't be such a shock to the system then.