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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

going to Relate but getting v mixed messages from H - in a mess

14 replies

feelingit · 03/02/2010 13:06

Hi. I am so completely confused about this I was wondering if anyone with experience could advise me on what to do.

DH left me and our DD about 3 months ago . He cited problems in our relationship for the reason but did also confess to getting to close to someone from work - had kissed and had been out with her. He was adamant we were over.He seemed to have a change of heart and we started counselling and are about 6 weeks in. We seem to have glimmers of hope when we really get to the bottom of the problems but he then immediately seems to sabotage any good by saying he is confused and is not sure if we can work this out.

I am 4 months pregnant, we have a 2.5 year old daughter. He flits between 'Maybe I should just move back in and at least then we'd know' and 'I can't live with the indecision - I feel like I need to make a rash decision'(ie ditch the counselling etc).

On the one hand he is going to the counselling but is not showing me that he is with me 100%. I have suggested going for a drink after counselling and he agreed but I feel as if it's me pushing him -

He has to come to his own decision and I suspect that OW plays more of a part in this than he wants to admit to me or himself (they did sleep together a few times after he left but he has ended this and I rightly or wrongly believe him - I believe him as he seems quite alone and gutted.)
I met him yesterday and he came out with so many conflicting things.

He feels as if I am not opening up in the sessions and not talking about my feelings yet seems to think I am pressurizing him when I do

He can see me getting stronger and moving on and it scares the life out of him as we are growing apart - yet he still feels like I 'need' something from him

At the end of our chat yesterday he said that the biggest thing stopping him is the shame and guilt of what he feels after all he has done. - not sure - is this just a 'get out?'

I am the one doing the reassuring saying 'but isn't that why we're going to counselling'. I sense that I am the one making more effort to save this.

I don't know what to do but I think I need to toughen up. Making the decision to walk away scares the life out of me . My DS is due in June and I just want us to be a family again. I have no idea if I am competing with the OW, his feelings for her or just his negative feelings about us as he just doesn't seem to be able to be straight answer.

I have gone back to sleepless nights, constant inner turmoil and am so confused about what I need tio do to regain some control or power in this situation. Can anyone help ?

OP posts:
sweetnsour · 03/02/2010 13:27

You poor poor thing - how awful for you.

If you can't find out what he wants, could you make a list of what you want? I know you want to be a family again primarily, but ask yourself too whether you could forgive him, whether you can put up with his confusion, etc.

At least it's something to think about away from the muddle he's made. As for regaining control or power - I'm not sure it's in your gift at this moment, so don't beat yourself up wanting it.

feelingit · 03/02/2010 13:39

Thanks for your reply - yes this is a consideration and I don't know the answer. I need reassurance from him but maybe the fact that he is not able to give that to me should be a sign... It's such a mess. I still struggle to believe this is my life!!

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/02/2010 14:54

So you were just pregnant when he walked out?

I suspect you've gone to counselling too early. Counselling only really works when both parties are committed to honesty and it doesn't sound to me as though he is being honest with you at all. It sounds to me as though he is still either having - or grieving for - the relationship with OW.

In your shoes I would try two things. I would confront the situation with him and ask a lot more questions about this relationship with OW and what it meant to him - including the status of their relationship now. And I would be saying that unless he is completely honest about this - and the extra marital relationship is over, you cannot move on with him. You need to know everything.

If he's not willing to do this (and it doesn't sound like he is) then I would be the decisive one here and take control. I would regard his terror at the prospect of you moving on as a weapon in your armoury and would tell him that you cannot bear this indecision any longer and will now be moving on without him. Confine discussions to parenting arrangements and information about the pregnancy.

It would also be worth you seeing your counsellor on your own - it really doesn't sound as though you can be honest in his presence either and this is impairing the value of the sessions for you.

feelingit · 03/02/2010 15:16

Hi thanks WWIFN.

I found out I was pregnant a week after he left. We had been trying but he had not had the courage to tell me he did not want another baby with me.In teh very early days he said 'This changes nothing' but then he had a turn around.

I have had a session by myself (as did he)last week. The counsellor told me that if I still want to make this work then I have to give him space re the OW, do not pressure him with questions about her and just trust him that she is not a big part of this and that it's over. That's certainly what he communicated to the counsellor in his 1-2-1 (as mine was after his)I do think it is but I don't think his feelings are and that's the confusing bit. but.. is he being honest even with the counsellor - it was him that requested it so I don't see that there was any point in lying. I suspect he is keeping his options open...

I have read 'Not Just Friends' and gave it to him to read last night. In the spirit of 'no pressure' I just said that it was there for him to read, that I had found it useful in understanding both sides to what we are feeling but that I would not be asking him if he had read it. As you say I have wondered if we went to counselling too early. I guess I thought it would better communication and understanding between us but as you say - we need honesty for that.

I have come close to grabbing the bull by the horns and telling him I am moving on but It's scary to accept that could be it when I have been hoping to reconcile - but I don't see a whole lot of respect for me at the mo. I was waiting until we had been for my scan in 10 days time (didn't come to the last one - wants to come for this one) to see if that jolts anything - or am I being ridiculous ?!

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/02/2010 18:15

I cannot tell you how profoundly I disagree with the counsellor. Does he/she specialise in infidelity I wonder? Has the counsellor read Just Good Friends? As a separate point, I read an illuminating report last week about how general counsellors very often do more harm than good when they try to apply normal counselling practice to infidelity - they very often leave the betrayed person feeling worse than ever about the questions they have and the torment they are going through.

Ask a random sample of us on here and we will tell you the same - if we'd been asked or been expected to ask no questions or put no pressure on about the OW, we would have gone quite mad. This strategy also lets the deceiver entirely off the hook and for some, lets them carry on with their affairs.

It's perfectly possible that your H is being disingenuous with the counsellor - it happens most in the early days after an affair has been discovered and the betrayer is in denial - and when the habit of lying and deceiving is still firmly embedded.

I can imagine it's terrifying, especially with a baby on the way, to take control. However the strategy you're currently using isn't working, is it? You say you don't feel much respect coming your way and it is often when the betrayed partner does take control and starts calling the shots that the respect returns. At the moment he is still in the habit of seeing you as a victim, not helped by your vulnerability being pregnant.

When would you say it started with this OW - I don't mean the affair, but his wanting to have one? How was your marriage before this point?

Think carefully about the counsellor - there are others out there who might be better for you at the moment.

feelingit · 03/02/2010 18:55

Hi

The counsellor is not saying that I should never ask him. Just to shelve it for the time being and concentrate on the problems in the marriage. I think he is telling me to forget that for now and leave him the space to make up his mind about his commitment to our marriage and working on it. He thinks too much pressure when H is so confused (be it about OW or just indecision about us) could just make him head for the hills and making a hasty (and possibly wrong) decision. I have gone along with this but did ask for a firm commitment to me that it was now over. Difficult as he has given me his word but this is the man who has already lied to me. I think I can kind of see his point ie - when/if he does see sense and say he wants to do everything to work on the marriage then the condition from me is that I must know everything. Does that make any sense to you ? It kind of does to me but it's really hard to practice. I think his head is saying 'yes lets make this work' but his heart says no - and that is what he is struggling with.

I would say it must have started around May of this year. Everything changed after he went to see a counsellor about his childhood problems and he started distancing himself from me saying he had changed and I hadn't - I was co-dependant and that we needed more space from each other. I was guilty of not giving us priority and spent all my time with DD and trying to prove myself again at work and he somehow got lost. I admit that and I can see it so clearly now. That's why I want so much to work through them now as I can see them crystal clear now - but I couldn't when he was here. Its really sad.Before that we were brilliant together. Sounds like such a cliche but he was just NOT the kind of man I could ever imagine doing this - His Dad was a serial cheater and he always hated him for that.

You are right though current strategy is not working . I have now made a decision to carry on with the next 2 sessions , wait for the scan the day after the next but 1 session and see if I can see any change of heart. so basically 9 more days. After that I think I know what I need to do and yes it is so scary but whilst on my way home I thought 'well I'm on my own now and in turmoil so would it not be better to simply be on my own minus the turmoil' however painful and scary that is.....

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/02/2010 19:06

And when did he meet this woman and start a friendship with her?

dittany · 03/02/2010 19:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

feelingit · 03/02/2010 19:50

WWIFN -
He works with her (typical) s not sure...... He started going out more 'with work' in about May time. He says that there was a big crowd of them initially then little by little they became close and then went for a few drnks togther. It can;t have been 'big' for that long I don;t think but I do get the impression there is/was a big EA aspect to it.. He claims they did not sleep with each other whilst he was still here but.........hmm I'm not so sure.

As far as the counsellor goes... goodness I never thought that h could be wrong. I just assumed that's what they would all say so I trusted him.

As for H , whilst I don't have any sympathy for him... He is so convincing when he talks that, in your mind is it conceivable that : He is very confused about his feelings for me (be it because of her or not - maybe he just thinks we're not right for each other ?), He knows its not the right thing to do for us to get back together purely because of the kids and is trying to find a way back to us resolving our marriage and finding a way to be together again - in this process he is very confused about what he wants. Is that possibly the case as that's how he describes it... or is this in no way possible and I am just being taken for a ride ?

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/02/2010 20:32

No, counsellors can be completely wrong - and do more harm than good in some cases. He is perhaps working on a flawed premise however - that your marriage was in trouble before the affair partner loomed into view, whereas more often than you would believe, it is the other way round.

That's why I asked you when she came on the scene. May, you said. I asked you earlier when the problems in your marriage surfaced. May, you said. Notice the link?

Betrayers used all sorts of justifications for affairs. Many of them belatedly point to "problems in the marriage" when actually, it is a problem in them. Unfortunately, I think your husband is so therapy-savvy that he's got the counsellor colluding with this nonsense.

Some people believe that it's not infidelity if they leave first, before they are sexual with OW. It is a common delusion that makes them feel better about themselves. Your H might be one of them, but as you say, you are sceptical about that anyway. It matters not. The infidelity occurred long before that, when he started an inappropriate friendship with another woman.

In a nutshell, I suspect you are being "played" - this has got everything to do with your H's character and the affair - and less, I suspect to do with the state of the marriage pre-affair, or what you did or didn't do.

Meanwhile, you have been blaming yourself for not giving him enough attention at a time when quite frankly, you had enough on your plate. I'd lay bets he never once came to you to express worry that he was getting attention from someone else, it was making him feel good about himself and therefore wanted to reignite the spark in your relationship?

It is not your fault that this affair happened and please, don't let him (or the counsellor) re-write history. Trust your memory and your instincts.

IfYoureHappyAndYouKnowIt · 03/02/2010 20:44

I think that in your position I would need more clarity on the situation with OW.

I have been in a similar situation where XH lied about OW for many many months and did not want it discussed during counselling (which counsellor and I effectively honoured - XH said it was irrelevant and TBH I was foolishly too scared to say anything. The counsellor seemed disinterested in the affair and more interested in telling me off for worrying! )

Looking back now (XH has since left and is with OW) it seems crazy to me that we went through the counselling process (during which XH was confused and unable to contribute to the sessions) without talking about OW long and hard. I just don't see why the counsellor didn't push it more as it now seems obvious to me that XH simply did not engage because his mind was on the affair and not on his marriage.

There is another thread on here at the moment (Maggie's one) where the whole thing is being managed somewhat differently. If I had my time again, I would do what Maggie is now doing. I don't honestly know whether it would have affected the outcome, but I do know that me and the DCs (who let's face it are the ones that matter here!) would have come out of this without some of the issues that now exist.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/02/2010 21:17

The report I read noted that counsellors bring their own beliefs into every counselling session. Those who haven't done much work about infidelity often have the belief that perhaps we all had once - that affairs only happen in unhappy marriages and that there must have been something drastically wrong with a marriage for an affair to happen. Good relationship counsellors work from a very different premise - that the problem often lies with the infidel and their unresolved issues and not necessarily the relationship, or the primary partner.

They can see through the denials and the delusions and critically, they challenge. One of the most respected psychotherapists in the world, Frank Pittman, reports that he takes a much more "involved" approach to counselling couples affected by infidelity - he thinks the traditional "neutral" counselling approach just doesn't work with trauma of this kind. He thinks it's vital to challenge denials and delusions.

Counsellors are often more comfortable with the more general "whole relationship" issues, because they have experience of that and it is within their comfort zone. A counsellor who doesn't seem interested in the massive issue of infidelity is probably avoiding it because it makes them feel uncomfortable for some reason - and they have old beliefs about why infidelity happens.

feelingit · 03/02/2010 22:23

Wow. I had got so involved in what I had done to 'cause' this affair that I had never considered that he may be rewriting history to that extent. Its really difficult as he comes out with SO SO many things that were wrong ie that we both come from f*cked up backgrounds so our relationship was built on sand, that we never 'grew' as a couple intimately or otherwise (ok he may have a point here) That I/we never nurtured the relationship and everything else was a priority ... I do remember him saying whilst in therapy that we had to really look after us because what we had was so special and trying to suggest 'dates' and things but actually if I am being honest then there was always something more important so I do have to take some responsibility.

But WWIFN you are right.. he did not ever tell me that he was getting interest from elsewhere and no matter how 'unloved' he was feeling what he did was inappropriate.

Now I am confused. We have our session tomorrow night and I am tempted to do a complete turnaround and ask him all about her again .. but I have done that and done it again and he continues to claim that she is not a big part (although I too think she is) but I can't get him to admit something he doesn't want to can I ?

Ifyourehappyandyouknowit - I guess I can predict what you would be doing tomorrow in my shoes too. I just feel like I'm floggin a dead horse if he won't be more honest about her tho.. I think that's what the counsellor is saying - no amount of questioning or accusing will change the outcome as he has to realise for himself.....Now I'm really confused. I wonder if I should ask the counsellor if he specialises in infidelity....

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/02/2010 12:31

Feeling it. I don't know your situation or anything about your relationship, obviously, but you might want to give some thought about why you seem to have taken responsibility for his affair. I think this might need challenging, you see.

I understand why it happens - unfortunately you even see people writing on here with their beliefs that betrayed partners are somehow to blame for adultery and more still that peddle the belief that affairs only happen in unhappy marriages. I think so many people still think this - and they have a huge investment in clinging to those beliefs because then they can also believe infidelity will never happen to them. That they can "control" whether their partners are unfaithful or not. I was that woman, so I understand it.

When it actually happens to us, amidst all the shock and realisation that we weren't in fact able to control what our husbands did, there is a need to find a reason for why this happened. In doing so, we are hoping that if we somehow behaved differently in future, we can control it happening again. This is, I suspect where you're at. You're finding comfort that you didn't respond enthusiastically to "date nights" and so if you put more effort in now, you will somehow be able to stop infidelity happening again.

But the problem with this is that it doesn't address his behaviour and his choices. Adultery is actually a pretty extreme way of expressing dissatisfaction with a relationship. Does it seem to your logical, rational self an adult, balanced way of expressing discontent? Did it occur to you before all this that he might have an affair? I'll bet it didn't.

One of the reasons I believe my H and I have been able to rebuild was that he never once blamed me or problems in our relationship for his infidelity. He saw this as a problem in him and therefore took himself off to counselling to get to the bottom of his behaviour, which was so inconsistent with the values he'd always cherished. In the final analysis, he told me that he would never be able to do it himself again, let alone me. He set about a difficult journey understanding how his previous traits of emotional retardation, low emotional intelligence and selfishness were in fact the perfect breeding ground for infidelity.

In a nutshell, the changes he made to himself were the most effective methods of preventing his further infidelity. If you've read Not Just Friends, you will see that Shirley Glass helpfully challenges the notion that betrayers weren't "getting enough" from their primary partner and asserts that in reality, they weren't "giving enough" to the relationship.

When my husband had his affair, it would never have occurred to him that he wasn't giving enough, but neither did he think he wasn't getting enough from our relationship. His internal "permission-giving" process for having an affair was therefore not that our marriage was lacking - in fact his justifications were pretty puerile - an escape from the stress he was undergoing at work, an ego boost and an adventure he'd never had before. Even then, it took him 10 months to give himself permission to do this and in order for that permission to be given, it was necessary for him to distance himself from me to create anything like a justification. He freely admits that when the friendship started with OW, we were in such a good place in our marriage that infidelity would have been unthinkable. He therefore needed to weaken our connection in order to do this, but he wasn't aware at the time that this was what he was doing.

It is natural for us betrayed to look for faults in ourselves and the marriage - and despite what I've said above, I can see how our marriage is infinitely better and richer than it was pre-affair. But we can both see now with absolute clarity that as soon as my H started giving more - specifically emotional honesty and selflessness, I responded in kind.

You tell us that things were wonderful before he went into therapy and met OW. Trust that memory. Yes, I do think your H is re-writing history and is trying to evade responsibility for what were ultimately his choices. A really good counsellor (Oh, if only you were seeing Shirley Glass or Frank Pittman) would be able to see through what he is doing and confront his behaviour. The counsellor is colluding with this and so yes, I do think you need to ask the counsellor how much experience they have of infidelity therapy and also what their own views are on why affairs happen. If you get any sense that they lack proper experience or have beliefs that affairs are always a sign that a relationship is not working, then find another counsellor.

If you don't believe me, have a look at the thread about women having affairs - notice the justifications they give for why they are being unfaithful. Not one of them is introspective enough to wonder whether they are somehow lacking in themselves to choose behaviour that they fundamentally believe to be wrong and destructive. It's much safer - and less challenging - to believe that they aren't "getting enough" from their primary relationships, when I would rather they question any narcissistic traits they might have, what they haven't been "giving" and indeed, why they haven't left their relationships before embarking on their affairs.

Then consider the people we all know who are repeatedly unfaithful, within the same relationship, or in successive ones. Is it really plausible that in all their relationships, they weren't getting enough from their partner and this led them to seek comfort from elsewhere. Or is it more plausible that there is a weakness in them and that this is, in fact, the common denominator? The problem is with the infidel, not their partners. Until they address this, they will go on repeating the same mistakes.

Your H is the one who has behaved destructively. Ignoring such an extreme behaviour choice as infidelity will not help you move on as a couple.

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