It's your fault, you married him.

[Janos]

Not the best title but this attitude is something I've seen a bit of on threads and just wanted to explore the thinking behind it.

Often on a thread if a poster is complaining about her husband/partners bad behaviour (for want of a better term) someone will pipe up and say 'Well why did you marry him if he was like that?' or 'I wouldn't put up with that nonsense.'

I'm just wondering, why? Interesting to hear what people think about this.

gawd knows - you were at it earlier with all that gear stick, stuff too

I know toccata, I need a slaaaaaap

janos, this is going way off-topic, if you are still here, tell us to bog off

Grace, I need you to explain this more.

Obviously I was ideal fodder for men who couldn't stand having their egos dented, but wanted a feisty (high-earning) wife. I'm not at all unusual in my generation. Looking at the mixed messages purveyed in today's media, I've got no reason to think things have changed much

I think you have touched on something big and scary

I think that's one of the hardest things to cope with after ending a relationship like that.

Why did I ignore all the signs, why did I marry him, why did I go on to have 4DC's with him, Why?

Because I thought it was my fault, because I only realised last year after picking up Lundi Bancroft that it wasn't my fault.

And now, I am so angry with myself for putting up with that sh*t for years. Why didn't I send him packing years ago, I would a friend if they treated me like that.

I think I am weak and easily led and so for people to say, why did you marry him isn't that helpful really. I don't know why I married him and I beat myself up every day that I did. I have wasted fifteen years on someone I will take another fifteen years to recover.

It just isn't that simple.

I'm starting to wonder if my brain is tuned into MN even when I'm not logged on...! I was starting to think about something along these lines before I went to sleep last night.

My thoughts, though, were that so many people seem to stay married or in relationships because they once made a decision to do so. They seem to put up with all sorts of horrors and unhappiness just because they made one decision. I'm not saying that the decision to marry should be discarded lightly but we live in an age now where mistakes can be fairly easily and quickly rectified.

So, on top of the man pleasing/feisty stuff (which I am definitely guilty of in the past)people also feel it's somehow wrong to say that they've made a mistake and then undo it.

Is that also a feminine trait, do you think?

it sounds like the sort of thing my mother would say - 'well what do you expect if you...... do x,y or z and you've made your bed.

In my case they had drummed into to me that you marry for life and you just put up with shit because that's more important (the staying together). When I told my father about my marriage probs (edited version) he hissed at me 'but you've got two young boys'.

I didn't but it does mean you are torn between what you know is the right thing to do and what is ingrained.

I agree Janos people who say things like that are rather smug and judgemental and clearly have not been in that position.

I also understand exactly what Grace is saying.

Another one here who totally gets what Grace is saying. Most people now accept that woman are entitled to the same jobs and earning potential as men, but domestically it's a very different story. It's fine for a woman to be a CEO but look at the sniping she receives if she has children and leaves them with a nanny or whatever There is a still an assumption in society at large, supported by legislation about maternity rights etc., that parenting is a woman's responsibility, and therefore most couples who have children it is the woman's career/needs that get sacrificed. This sends out one reinforcement that men are more important than women. Look at films. Today's heroines are often high-powered feisty women who somehow are only complete when they 'surrender' to the man at the end of the film. Actually, there is a disturbing trend in recent years that the heroines are becoming simpering brainless idiots who need a man to somehow gain control of their lives, but that's a different topic.

Back to the OP, I tend to read it as a message of self-responsibility, i.e. you can't change this man so you need to look at yourself and why you're in this unhealthy relationship if you are going to find a solution. I agree it can often come across as "you made your bed so lie in it" although I don't think it's intended that harshly. Whether or not it's helpful depends on the person reading it I guess. I benefit enormously from the 'kick up the arse' approach, one of my closest friends finds that it just makes her feel more rubbish than ever and can therefore be quite paralysing.

Excellent bit of fleshing-out there, Optimist.

Wrt to feeling we "should" stay married: I think this applies to men and women - people don't leave a marriage lightly, whatever the Daily Mail says. We make a lifelong commitment; thank goodness we can get out of it these days, but it's still a major decision.

The feisty/pleasing thing though - that is big and scary.

Just another angle on this, from a Mumsnet perspective though.

It does frustrate me when women post on here about having affairs and they do the "re-writing history" bit. As justification for what they are doing, they claim that they knew before they were even married that the relationship wasn't right, or that there was no chemistry, which does beg the question - well, why have you waited to have an affair to exit a relationship you always knew wasn't right?

Or could it be that in fact your relationship was never this bad, but you need to believe that it was, to justify what you're doing now?

In those cases, I think it's fair enough for respondents to query why women went ahead and married men they didn't love. If someone is deluding themselves that they have in fact been a victim, when until OM came along, they would have thought no such thing, it can be helpful to have that delusion challenged.

I also dislike the practice of only having the courage to leave a relationship when an alternative beckons. Often, people would be better served by striking out on their own and reviewing a past relationship in an objective light. People tend not to be objective about the relationship they've left when they are already involved with someone new and shiny. I think this is why so many of these "new" relationships fail - once out of the "love haze", the previous relationship (and person) doesn't seem so bad after all, there is a belated realisation that had it not been for the affair, the relationship could have been successful.

I have far more respect for people (men and women) who realise that they made a mistake marrying, take responsibility for that decision and end the relationship. I've also got a lot of respect for people who have the courage to live on their own and stand on their own two feet, instead of expecting someone to "take care of them".

ItsGraceAgain - your post was very insightful, thank you .

ItsGraceAgain's post is brilliant.

I sometimes get the impression that people marry even when there is a problem because it doesn't seem like a big issue. When you're younger and care free, a relationship issue can seem quite minor, but once you're facing the bigger issues that life throws at you it can seem much worse.

A friend of mine married a guy who tends to lay down the law quite a bit - she has always let him make most of the major decisions in their relationship because he insists on it. That was sort of OK (arguably) when they were just discussing where to go on holiday but now they are talking about having children, it's starting to go very sour. It's very easy to think that she should stop letting him ignore what she wants or that she should walk away but they love each other and are generally a good couple so I'm not sure where she should draw the line and say 'enough!'.

I do think that another issue is the constant pressure on people, particularly women to marry ie being single over the age of 30 tends to get you looks and comments (and many, many people insist that whatever you say, you must be unhappy and desperate for 'love'). So quite a few people marry or move in with someone who is, well, sort of OK rather than (gulp) be single. Often, one partner in a couple is drifting along amicably, not really bothered about the other person but it's nice to have a partner etc,while the other person is madly in love and angling for commitment - so this couple get married out of inertia on one side and desperation on the other, and it all goes wrong fairly quickly.

"janos, this is going way off-topic, if you are still here, tell us to bog off"

LOL AF

Actually, this has turned into a very interesting thread! I really enjoy reading people's opinions on this, lots of food for thought.

it's back on topic again, janos, so < as you were >

It started with me when my mother approached my complaints about my father's unreasonable behavior with "Stop winding him up then. If you stop winding him up he won't shout at you/hit you/throw your possessions out of your bedroom window"

this was a lie. I don't think she even knew it was a lie though - she herself was conditioned to believe that men are not responsible for their actions, and that women must adjust their behavior in order to get the behavior they desire from men.

So I didn't realise that it's not normal to compromise your whole personality, happiness and life on the whim of someone with no more self control than the average 4 year old.

Also, behavior that isn't actually a problem before you have children (not getting up until 2pm, not doing housework, being drunk at 6 pm) is not actually a PROBLEM until you have a child. Nobody cares if someone in an equal relationship wants to sleep late while the other person doesn't. What can cause arguments is when one person doesn't realise that SOMEONE has to get up with that screaming baby - or worse, realises it and decides it's not going to be them.

You don't know a person's attitude to child raising until you actually have a child with them. You don't realise how selfish someoen is until they are called upon not to be. It's easy to take your wife out for a meal - it's enjoyable for yourself too. It's a different kettle of fish to stay in on a Saturday night while she goes out for a meal without you.

Interesting thread. I think the whole 'why did you marry him' thing can be phrased much more politely (or indeed passive aggressively!) by saying 'was he always like this, when did it change' etc.

For me, the toughest 'why did you do that then' threads are those where a poster has had kids with somebody, found it incredibly hard, then had more kids with them, then come here to ask us why it is so hard.

It's the biggest MN taboo obviously to question why people have x amount of kids so I never say a word.

But I have to sit on my hands sometimes. I'm sorry to anybody that may offend.

Me too MoZapp

Sometimes the biggest question is why, to the point of being the elephant in the room.

I don't ask it though, for what is the point really?

I prefer to accept the situation as it is now and advise accordingly, based on that.

Yes but from the other side, I can ask why now but it's taken me 15 yrs to realise that I could ask why.

Before then, it was always, why was I getting it so wrong, he's the only person who will put up with me. I thought it was me.

That's my point, I think a lot of people who are still in the situation, aren't in a position to ask why.

It's easy to look in from the outside and question why but not when you're in it.

I was a totally different person the minute I realised it wasn't my fault. Then I could question why, leave and still ask why every damn day.

And I had 4 dc's with him, why? Because I thought I could make it work, I thought if only I could learn how to get things right things would improve.

your example is why I don't ask that question fpm

because I trust that the reason people don't ask themselves why is only one of a myriad of explanations why people stay in abusive r'ships

Wow thank you everyone for your opinions.

And MorrisZapp..I don't think you are offensive, you post a lot of useful, thought provoking advice on here. And as I said a virtual pat on the head is not always helpful and sometimes can be positively harmful.

I think there's still an expectation around that women are responsible for and expected to manage a man's behaviour.

Therefore..in a relationship situation..if a man 'behaves badly' (for want of a better phrase), it's her fault because she didn't 'manage' him properly, which is a very sexist assumption. You still get comments like 'Oh you know what men are like'..

And then there is the expectation/hope that someone will change. It's like the behaviour colditz describes. Oh, he stays out til 3 in the morning now but it'll be different when we have kids...that kind of thing.

Also where a man is being abusive the omwn can feel responsible..again because his moods are her responsibility and therefore she must be doing something wrong, ergo if she does things differently it will all be ok. Of course that isn't true.

I must admit that this is a bit of a sore spot for me because of my EA ex. I often feel (rightly or wrongly..I acknowledge it's my issue) that people see me as weak and stupid for putting up with his behaviour, and I've had comments to that effect. Sometimes it can be really hurtful not least because I often ask myself the same questions.

Urghm should preview...'omwn' should be woman.

I agree. I suppose I meant not so much in abusive relationships but ones that are just crap and unsatisfying, or where the DH gives no practical help with the kids etc.

ie 'My DH doesn't help me at all, never has. I'm finding this really hard just now as I'm pg with number x'.

I dunno. I have a friend who has a child with a man who did nowt, paid nowt, and promised nowt. Then she had another one with him. It comes back to the old 'when somebody shows you who they are, believe them'.

If he is crap dad to numbers 1, 2 and 3 then isn't that telling you how he might be to the next new arrival?

I sound hideously unsympathetic, I know I do. I hope I can at least be honest though. I'm not talking about abusers who have shut down a person's ability to see the wood for the trees. Just people who are well meaning but a bit crap, and always have been.

A lot of the time, though, "He doesn't help around the house" is code for more pervasive abuse. What with the woman feeling 'responsible' for everything that's wrong, plus hoping he'll 'get better' - and social pressures to keep the family together - she can do a pretty good job of pretending (even to herself) the issues are fairly trivial.

In my mother's day, you weren't supposed to complain about your husband at all. Nowadays, it's acceptable to whinge about housework or absenteeism. So, at least, there is something she can put her finger on & vocalise. Quite often, what's really going on is emotional abuse. You try mentioning "emotional abuse" in an average gathering of women - most will say there's no such thing and make jokes about it.

The problem with typifying it as a housework issue, for example, is that the solution - more assertiveness - won't fix it; it may make things worse. So the wife looks like a whiner.

Of course, if no partners were abusive OR if all partners were secure & confident, the OP needn't exist. But that's not how life is.

x-posted.

Very useful thread, Janos, thank you