long, boring, it aint gonna change...

[bb99]

He's not generally that bad, but when under a lot of stress...

Well, our son has been waking VERY EARLY this week and I am desperate to train him to not just lay in bed shouting until someone comes and gets him up, but to wait it out until it's a reasonable hour. He's 2 3/4 so old enough to grasp a concept.

This am was my week end day to get up for him, he woke at 6.45am and I wanted him to stretch it out a bit, until after 7am, plus I wanted to get him up when he wasn't babbling/being noisy so he could get used to the idea that getting up doesn't require loud volume commands IYSWIM. So plan is going like clockwork and ds is calming down - he's fine just chatting away and managing to do it fairly quietly for him, then he's a bit louder so I tell him 5 mins of quiet then I'll get him up, again, more or less fine (no crying, just chatting happily) when DH bursts out of his room and storms across landing, gets ds out of bed. DH is a bit obsessive about giving ds whatever he wants, whenever he wants...

I am now a bit cross with DH as he has just re-inforced the concept that if DS yells, he will get what he wants...so stoopidly go downstairs with dh to try and get him to go back to bed and admittedly tell him to stop messing up what I am trying to do with ds - he regularly just over rides what I am doing with ds and undermines me - absolutely stupid as he knows what problems undermined parents face as the kids get older

So then I am faced with a raging man who is telling me how

1. selfish
2. crap wife
3. useless mother
4. crap wife - just look at this place
5. bitch
6. bitch
7. selfish fucking bitch
8. useless wife and mother
9. I just wanted a lay in

10. u r too selfish, soo selfish, selfish fucking bitch (which is an improvement from last year where 'selfish fucking hoar and ungrateful bitch' were the common loving missive for me. 11. Yes, when I have been physically aggressive to you it has been all your own fault...I think bitch was attached to that one too... 12. you were a fucking psycho for 2 years (well 18 months of pnd does tend to leave a bad impression) and so deserved to be treated like crap. 13. you are crap at routines and are spoiling ds routine by not getting him up at 7am on the dot...you useless and crap mother

YES, I know the knee jerk reaction will be to leave and I am stoopid not too, but these occurances are thankfully getting quite rare.

I am starting to get a bit concerned, he is very frightenning when he goes for it like this and a part of me thinks, well if u r having such a shit time, what are you doing staying with me ffs? I am always suprised when he does this as he is so ok and then just blows...

Part of the problem is I have organised a RARE day out with one of my friends - usually when I do this I drive a 140 mile round trip and leave the kids with my parents, DH stays at home and has some time to himself, but today is a revolution - I am travelling by train and meeting up He finds this really hard as he feels that he never gets to enjoy himself and has to go out to work and work so hard for no rewards (he has a victim mentality - all his family do, it's a learnt response)...but now am a bit worried about leaving the kids - he can be a bit of a shit to my daughter when he's pissed at me, nothing too ott, just very moany and I feel bad leaving them with him because I don't feel secure with him at this moment in time, I feel as though I shouldn't trust him. But another part of me thinks - he's just trying to stop me going out with my friends as he's always a bit of a pain when I organise seeing any of my friends and I feel like pavlovs dog - 'if you go out I WILL BE A PSYCHO and be so unpleasant you won't want to go out ever again...'

Just getting things off my chest - don't understand why things need to be like this, poor dh is convinced that my soul purpose in life is to make him as miserable as possible, ohhh how little he knows about how miserable life COULD be if I just put in a little effort [devil face]

Anyone got any experience of a partner who became a reformed potty mouth - I do find the insults quite hard to bear, especially as one of my pnd things was that I was a shite mother and also that I know I let both my children down when I was ill and previously when I had my first miscarriage, I found it hard to cope so wasn't around for a while for my eldest...and I am the first to admit that I am no longer house proud - the result of spending a bit too much time clearing up after dh , working a lot of days this last month and then spending time with dcs when I should have been clearing up. Oh well, never mind...

Or is this 'normal'?

gawd he sounds awful

does he ever get to go away with his friends? maybe that's his bugbear
although from the sounds of him he probably doesn't ahve any friends
I'd take the kids to your parents tbh

Well, I would leave someone who spoke to me like that.

That aside, I wouldn´t leave the children with him as I would be frightened for them from what you´ve said.

And that´s not good.

Nah, he does get to go out with his friends and I do feel bad writing all this down - he can be really lovely and is good with the kids and was even good with ds today, between hairdryering me, so I could probably write down just as many good things about him as bad. But this morning...

It just seems to be me he hates and has ishoos with. He is really stressed at work at the moment and drowning, not waving, also feels very responsible as he is the main salary and I work on a freelance basis so I can spend time with dcs...so under pressure doesn't even begin to cover it.

I really want him to get CBT so he can find better outlets for his pissed offness, but of course he doesn't have a problem, other than his lazy bitch of a wife clearly...

I just really worry that something abnormal (I don't remeber my folks being like this) has just become the norm and I really don't want my kids thinking this is normal - but maybe I am being a it oversensitive?

Oh and I was shouting back, so am not the model of propriety myself, but I used to just burst into tears when he did this and will not do that anymore - because I disagree with what he has said and he has not listenned to WHY I was trying to get ds to stay in bed...

We're probably as bad as each other only I tend to accept that idea and dh always thinks it's someone elses fault.

You write very disconnectedly ans you are being abused by him; probably that is the only way for you to cope currently. It seems that you have "shut down". This is not normal at all and you and your children are just being dragged down further by him.

He is both an abusive and controlling husband along with a terrible role model for your children to be witness to.

He probably is "nice" sometimes; if abusive men were awful all the time no-one would want to have a relationship with them. Abuse though is a circle of nice and nasty behaviours.

You're having a hard time (and that is an understatement) with him (and he will not change, this is learnt behaviour from his own parents) but this does not just involve you any more; he is acting in a similar manner towards the children as well.

You need to protect them from him as well as yourself in the longer term too. Take the children to your parents, do not leave them with him today.

What are you teaching them both about relationships here, damaging lessons are being imparted by both of you to them.

I would also suggest you call Womens Aid as they can be very helpful in these types of situations.

It just seems to be me he hates and has ishoos with. He is really stressed at work at the moment and drowning, not waving, also feels very responsible as he is the main salary and I work on a freelance basis so I can spend time with dcs...so under pressure doesn't even begin to cover it.

This is an excuse for him, many women in these situations write the same sorts of things. I reckon he can keep his cool with other people and does not act in the same manner towards them as he does towards you. You are being abused at his hands and he knows what he is doing. Abuse is all about power and control; he wants absolute over you hence his controlling behaviours.

"I really want him to get CBT so he can find better outlets for his pissed offness, but of course he doesn't have a problem, other than his lazy bitch of a wife clearly..."

What if he refuses CBT which is likely. CBT is not really going to help here, you write that his whole family have the same victim mentality. His problems are therefore very deeply rooted.

"I just really worry that something abnormal (I don't remeber my folks being like this) has just become the norm and I really don't want my kids thinking this is normal - but maybe I am being a it oversensitive?"

This abusive situation has become the norm for you and your children as well. No you are not being oversensitive at all!!!.

You must start protecting your own self and your children. WA is a good place to start.

www.womensaid.org.uk

"he has just re-inforced the concept that if DS yells, he will get what he wants"

Um, sounds like he gets that message from his Dad in clearer ways than you've just described.

I can be a bit of a shouter when I lose my rag, and I come from a family of shouters, but what you describe is really shocking to me - that level of abuse and anger is appalling, it really is.

The fact that you have learnt to shout back isn't an improvement, is it? He should be learning to hold his temper and not say such dreadful things. It is very bad for your children to hear you both shouting at each other like that.

The fact that he makes it difficult for you to see your friends is also a very bad sign.

You are obviously going to defend him and say what a great Dad he is and how you don't want to break up your family. I don't know how you can hold that thought in your head at the same time you aren't sure you can trust him with your children.

At least start to think about how damaging this is for you and your children and how you could go about getting out of it, even if you're not ready to do it quite yet.

The people I know in RL have differing opinions about all this.

My mum is sure he is lovely and he is a vast majority of the time - works hard, provides well, helps out with the kids etc etc a bit lazy on the old home front but he has always been useless at housework and completely uninterested in it, so I never really expected him to change there, as people don't.

My best friend knows us both quite well and sees this am as part of the on going domestic rows we've had over the last decade (you don't do enough, no YOU don't do enough, no I am better, NO I am better - than you) and thinks all will be settled down before the morning is out - which it will and that dh probably feels a bit of a prat right now.

A shared friend of ours told me her dp (who is a very close friend of dh) was shocked by the way dh spoke to me once in front of them and suprised.

His sister has told him off before now about the way he spoke to me once in front of her.

I really don't know - perhaps I need to keep a bit of a diary so I can get things into a true perspective and see just how often he is blowing and write down the nice stuff too.

He has made some progress as he used to be really snappy if he was stressed and then not apologise or anything and this could go on for days - sulking, storming around etc, but then his whole family are all very dramatic like this and to them it's all just normal - I do come from a really quietly argumentative family, if anyone ever shouted you knew you'd really over stepped the mark, but then my dad hated rows and neither of my parents are particularly noisy people...

Now he usually tries to start over if he's been snappy for no reason and does seem to be trying to not be so aggressive when he's stressy. Even managed an apology the other day for snapping. But he is still convinced that I am really horrid to him - could be I am and I live in a delusional world but I really don't think this is the case.

I just don't get why he gets so wound up - I can be dramatic and shouty when annoyed, but he just seems to go above and beyond. I would like him to find a better way of managing his feelings as it would make him (and me) a much happier person.

Thought of CBT as I know it can help you to master unhelpful thoughts (possibly like my bitch of a wife is out to get me again...) and help your overall happiness.

BIG irony is that we were so happy at the middle/end of last year we tried to have another child - which of course ended in another hideous late mc. So now we have the opportunity to possibly have heparin treatment to try and get through a pg, but I am now thinking...would that really be a good idea?

I guess I used to think he was a bit abusive, but things had improved so much I thought we'd gotten this behind us. I know a leopard never changes his spots (well, not often) but a whole break up thing is HUGE and I really don't want to persue that option if this is all just a stupid, childish, namecalling argument (BTW, I dodn't call him names, but I did say he was being stupid, especially when he refused to go back to be to have a lie in, so I am not perfect in any way shape or form)

I just have never heard my parents call each other names, ever, and so that is the norm for me. His parents do have quite an adversarial relationship, so perhaps we just see things differently?

Maybe a discussion along the lines of - I understand you are pissed that you did not get a lie in you wanted and I am sorry that happened, but it was not my intention and I really don't think it was necessary to call me all those names, I really don't like it when you do that.

We have thought about using RELATE before and went to an initial appointment, but things seemed to improve for both of us, so we didn't follow up - that could be a possability.

bb99

Where do you see yourself in a year's time with regards to him?

The people in your real life have no real idea at all of what it is like in your house behind closed doors. Also abusers can appear very plausible to those in the outside world. He is both controlling of you and paranoid.

You likely get "dramatic and shouty" in response to him kicking off in the first place.

Re this comment too:-
"A shared friend of ours told me her dp (who is a very close friend of dh) was shocked by the way dh spoke to me once in front of them and suprised. His sister has told him off before now about the way he spoke to me once in front of her".

These two above incidents are very telling indeed. It shows how you have learnt to tolerate and put up with his ongoing verbal abuse. He has done a thorough number on you to get you to such a disconnected state.

He learnt conflict from his parents; if their own relationship was/is adversarial in nature then he has learnt these lessons from them. It is unlikely therefore that he will readily, if at all, change. As said before absuers operate in a circle of nice/nasty. But it is still a circle.

Where do you think we learn about relationships from?. Which comes now to you both - what are you both teaching your own children about relationships?. You are both teaching them damaging lessons here, no two ways about it.

Please do not bring another child into this dysfunctional warzone of a relationship.

If you go to Relate, go on your own. No counsellor worth their salt would want to counsel both of you together due to the ongoing verbal and mental abuse at his hands. Who made the decision to stop going to relate after one session anyway (him?).

How much are you prepared to put up with?. How much lower will you fall, along with your children?. This has gone on for too long and you and your children are being damaged by him.

The two of you should not be together. He is abusive to you and by turn your children. You hang yourself by your own petard if you were to stay with him and your children as adults won't thank you for staying with him either. They could well accuse you at that time of putting him before them.

bb99. I have been told most of the stuff that you list (except for the useless mother bit). Added to my list was for years calling me a whore, almost daily, because I did make a mistake with an ex before my H and I were married, and he has used it as a stick to beat me with ever since. Even when after, probably five years, he stopped calling me a whore, he has basically treated me like one always. Although, I have learnt that abusive men often treat and think of women in this way, anyway. Added to my list has been that I am old (H is 10 years younger than me), disgusting, saggy tits, revolting body (I wont go into more graphic descriptions as I can't write them here) etc. (sorry! I had three kids/breastfeeding etc!!!) and My H is an abusive Narcissist and I have, after years, ended up at times shouting and being verbally abusive back. This is no solution to the problem and is wrong (but even a worm (me) turns often in the end after years of being treated like crap).

Oh, I forgot to add, he even denies that he beat me up for years. Apparently it never happened (I never reported any incident to the police) and if anything had happened, I had hit him first and he was just 'protecting' himself. Strange then how the first occasion I can remember him hitting me was when I was holding our first new-born baby and he slapped me round the face.

And yes, he is everyone else's best friend - friendly, warm, etc.

I have no belief that a man like my H can ever change.

I don´t really see what difference your shouting back makes tbh.

If I shout at my husband, and to my shame I have, he doesn´t engage with me, or if he does he doesn´t shout back and certainly isn´t verbally abusive.

bb99-I'm stunned by your story.
It is almost identical to mine. Although my dh was less verbally abusive (I might only be called a bitch a few times in an argument). I can predict exactly how you are feel having/after having such a row.
You know something isn't right so you are feeling angry and a bit rightous. But at the same time you are thinking things like 'well, perhaps I should have just gotten up with ds as it was his (dh's) turn to have a lie in, maybe that was a bit mean of me etc.'
or 'well, he is going to have to look after ds all by himself today because I am going to go and have fun with my friends. He never goes out, so it's not as though I do this for him, perhaps he has a point that I'm being selfish etc. (this is despite the fact that the dh never actually wants to socialise with other people)
or - 'well, I was shouting too, so that makes me just as bad as him then etc.'

You need to take a step back.
Look beyond the things the arguments seem to be about. Because it's not about that stuff. It's about how he is actually behaving and whether it is EVER acceptable to treat anybody the way he is treating you (and presumably you ds).

My dh also suffers from the 'woe is me I work so hard and never get any appreciation for that' - syndrome
I grew up in a calm household too (except for my wild teenage years..) and dh's was the complete opposite, full of dysfunctional people behaving badly frequently.

Things came to a head over the summer and dh accepted that his behaviour was abusive.
Dh and I are currently seeing our own therapists. Things are improving. But I am still wondering if we are doing the right thing.
It's hard work, learning to think in a completely different way, but I think I am getting there. I try my best to detach when things get 'stressy' and concentrate on not letting myself accept him behaving badly towards me or the children.
I'm not advocating my path, but I think you could work on actually 'seeing' his behaviour for what it is - abusive, and working from there.

ATM is so right. To the outside world my H is a 'lovely' guy. He has helped people to get jobs etc. by highly recommending them to companies and people think he is brilliant. But he would not help me with anything in life - in fact he has has been very sadistic to me over the years. They (abusive men)drive you crazy and then - it is 'you' that is the problem. But this is my second marriage, and I know how I was with a non-abusive man, and in the first marriage there was NO name calling or anything. That marriage didn't work out for other reasons (but nothing to do with abuse). My H has zero respect for me and I, too, therefore, have finally got to a crossroad in life where you have to decide - do I really want to live like this any more and more importantly - is it fair on my children.

"I just have never heard my parents call each other names, ever, and so that is the norm for me."

I would assume that is the norm for most people.

As I said, I come from a family of shouters, my Dad has been known to roar about things when he's in a bad humour.

But he has never, never called my mother names. The very thought of it is ridiculous.

Nor would he be ever be physically aggressive towards her or anyone else (well-spotted dittany I don't think I got through the whole list before I posted, I was so appalled by the things he was saying).

Also as Attila points out, the fact that mutual friends are horrified by how he speaks to you is something you should not ignore.

Your Mum and your best friend know you both, but I find it odd that they think that this kind of behaviour is relatively rare or of short duration makes it OK. That kind of outburst needs more of a response than feeling like a prat. At the very least he needs to do a lot of work on himself to work out why he loses it in the way he does.

I can't imagine how upset I would have been as a child if I had heard a row such as you describe above between my parents. Truly - calling you a bitch and saying you deserved physical aggression? That is awful, awful.

"a whole break up thing is HUGE and I really don't want to persue that option if this is all just a stupid, childish, namecalling argument"

I'm afraid you are very very deluded OP, if you can't see the harm that is being inflicted on your children by your continued insistence on subjecting them to life with this man. Your son is going to grow up treating women, actually, no, abusing women, just like his father does, and if you have a daughter well, God help her.

This abusive, aggressive, toxic relationship is being imprinted on their minds as the template for their adult relationships.

stay with him, put up with it, let them see it, just don't expect them to thank for it when they grow up.

If he thinks your so crap , selfish , inadequate ect tell him to fuck off and find someone better.Let him tantrum at someone else while you go out and shag with some 6,6 good looking guy.
Tell him to kiss you arse, i did , and have never looked back.Expect of course for him to be banging on your door daily when there ISNT a queue of woman wanting to put up with his shit or washing his skiddy pants..

Tell him to fuck off op, and how dare he be shit to your daughter ! Fucking bully.Goes without saying that all these incidants happen in private dont they.

They dont change op, they only get worse and this is damaging for your kids. My fat bullying abusive ex h used to whinge about the house ( cheeky twat ) until i emptied the bin into his bed.Gave him something to moan about.

You have to get out of this relationship for the sake of your kids, you have a choice, they do not.

I grew up in a highly dysfunctional household with victim mentality, shouting abuse, violence etc and guess what I do NONE of the things your H does.

I am an adult and I am responsible for my own actions, please do not use his past as an excuse for his current behaviour.

You are setting a very bad example to your kids, telling them that this is acceptable as he is NICE most of the time.

Please, call Women's Aid I promise you they will open your eyes to reality and help you.

He's a shitbag. He feels entitled to mistreat you. You are a human being, not his punchbag or stress toy.
Start sorting out your legal position WRT housing and finances and get ready to get rid of this stupid self obsessed bully, who is not all powerful or 'perfect' but an inadequate fuckup who can only feel good when he's destroying someone else.

have to say i agree with the other --

"11. Yes, when I have been physically aggressive to you it has been all your own fault" rang bells -

ystrday my ex brought papers to my door to sign and said how humiliating it was to have to stand on doorstep and not be allowed in...i pointed out that that was because the last time in my property (august 2008) he had smashed the door with his fist (among other things including assaulting me).

(having him even on the doorstep is a BIG step for me...)

did he say "yes; you are right and i am really sorry and regret that, it should never have happened, can we move forward.."

no; he said "well, i smashed up your door that day because you told me that i could not pick up my daughters from school on the thursday"

(not least i told him that because of his aggresive and violent behaviour, much other stuff which meant i could not trust him with kids...)

he then put his foot into the doorway so i could not close the door on him,, and accused me of being "abusive". eventually i got him to leave...

it is that sense of entitltement...

and it probably wont go away

you need to seriously think where this is going, go see a counsellor, start thinking how you'd separate, leaave and give the kids a better life away from this toxic environment.

we are much better off...it is a long road...ystrday confirmed to me i did the right thing. (and i will go back to implementing a no-go zone around my property - no more doorstep encounters.)

"They dont change op, they only get worse and this is damaging for your kids. "

absolutely...

and yes, this morning i met a school mum who asked after him, was he working etc...chit chat... (knows he had depression etc) and said "well, he is such a lovely man, i hope he finds himself a good job " ....

What you are experiencing IS an abusive man. I spent 3 years with someone like this who was nicenasty-nice-nasty. Everyone thought the sun shone out of his backside... he was a professional....great job....appeared very "with it" to everyone else....exceptionally polite...

Everything he did happened when me and him were alone...and when he was nice? He was really nice too.

We broke up in Feb and the only thing that made me realise what the hell had been going on was this book by Lundy Bancroft called "Why does he do that" Inside the minds of angry and controlling men.

Every single woman should read this book as we often get so many mixed messages about what is acceptable behaviour that we ourselves get totally confused.

I could have married this guy and had kids with him. I'm so glad I got out when I did. The most difficult thing can sometimes be that abusive men are very sexually exciting and passionate (not all but a certain type are...you'll read about this in the book.)

You need to quietly make steps to leave your husband because he already thinks he can hit you so he'll hit the kids....and then you're own son could grow up to be just like him. My ex's father was a batterer.

Please get the hell out of this relationship. It will be the best thing you ever do even if you don't realise it just yet.

Also... get as much emotional help and support as you can. You're gonna need it and it will do wonders for your inner confidence.

Call refuge on: 0808 2000 247 (free)

They will refer you to local support groups who you can lean on, offload to, ask for advice about practical steps.

Domestic violence DOESN'T just mean hitting or beating your intimate partner. It doesn't matter if it happened once or a 100 times...it is domestic violence.

It can be physical, sexual, psychological or emotional abuse. Financial abuse and social isolation are also common features.

The violence and abuse can be actual or threatened and can happen once every so often or on a regular basis.

It can happen to anyone, and in all kinds of relationships - heterosexual, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT). People suffer domestic violence regardless of their gender, social group, class, age, race, disability, sexuality or lifestyle. The abuse can begin at any time - in new relationships or after many years spent together.

Children are affected by domestic violence both in the short and the long term.

All forms of abuse - psychological, economic, emotional and physical - come from the abuser?s desire for power and control.

your H sounds very very similar to mine, but worse, and i am leaving mine.
i think you are on the very beginning of the road that will hopefully take you on a journey of realising how awful he is treating you. you can't put up with this.

What a wonderfully loving thing for your little boy to see. maybe, if you're very lucky, in 20 years time he will bring his girlfriend home and call ,her a useless fucking slag, and reduce her to tears, to show daddy how well he learned the lesson he was taught at 2 years old.

or maybe there is another way to be. Maybe your son doesn't have to grow up with a knot of fear and revulsion in his little chest every time he sees his father verbally kicking the shit out of his mother, leaving your little boy feeling helpless to protect you yet feeling he should protect you anyway.

maybe, if you manage to leave this disgusting specimen, your son will grow up without having to hide under the bed frantically stuffing torn up book paper into his ears to block out the sound of his father calling his mother a "selfish fucking bitch"

www.womensaid.org.uk/

This is abuse..... but what you don't seem to see is that it is also child abuse and by not taking your child out of this awful situation, you are complicit in the abuse of your little boy.

I do know how hard that is to hear, how hard tht is to think of - but would you set fire to his teddy bear and make him watch? I doubt it ... so why is he watching and hearing his mummy being treated like the shit on someone's shoe? he must feel awful.