All about my mother... advice please! (warning: v long)

[somethinganything]

Feel ever so guilty posting this because I have a very loving, generous mother and I know that a lot of people on these boards have to deal with far bigger problems. However, I could really do with some advice.

My mum is, as I've said, very supportive in many, many ways. But she's also very domineering and I feel as if she still has far too much control over and input into my life. I'm writing this now because it was DD's birthday at the weekend and I know that I would have enjoyed the whole thing so much more and been much more relaxed if she hadn't been there. She just has a way of dominating everything. She talks louder and longer than everyone else, pounces on any new people and asks them endless questions about themselves but always ones that then provide openings for her to talk about herself and her own life. There's just no room for anyone else to get a word in edgeways and a day that should have been all about DD ends up being dominated by her. I've had it my whole life: my 21st b'day party, hen party, wedding etc all, to an extent, get either orchestrated or overshadowed by her.

She had a very difficult childhood herself and I think now just lives her life through me. Over the years she's tried to control everything from my hair cut (she's been known to throw a complete strop when I went to a hairdresser that she hadn't chosen) to my choice of boyfriends, to the clothes I wear. And although she is incredibly generous, always offering to pay for things for DD and giving me presents of clothes etc part of me feels it's just a way for her to control my life a bit more. I should add that my physical appearance is terribly important to her, we were brought up to be incredibly looks conscious (I look back on some of the things she said to us growing up and hate the way we were conditioned to judge people by their looks). She always, without fail, makes a comment on my appearance when she sees me (not necessarily a negative one, often it's very flattering but it just reinforces to me the fact that appearances are more important to her than anything else) - I think I sometimes deliberately go around looking very drab as a form of passive rebellion. She also calls/emails/text the whole time and wants to know everything about what's going on in my life: who I'm going out with that evening, what I'll be wearing, what colour curtains I'm looking at for our bedroom. I find myself deliberately withholding information just so I feel I can keep someething for myself.

Her life completely revolves around me and DD. My brother moved away a long time ago and, while we are all still close in many ways, he is now very strict about how much he allows my mother into his life. He believes she is very manipulative and was instrumental in the break-up of his marriage and refuses to let her meet his new partner - I think he's actually far too hard on her as it happens but it has made me think long and hard about my relationship with her.

Anyway, if anyone has made it through that long rant, the reason I'm posting is this: I love her very dearly and appreciate everything she does and has done for me my whole life but I also know that the nature of my relationship with her really depresses me and that I dread the thought of her coming to every birthday party I ever have for my children, for example. But how can I not invite her?

Is her behaviour actually just quite normal mother stuff? I know a lot of people meeting her just occasionally see her just as someone who is friendly and generous and loves her family very much. Maybe I'm just massively over-sensitive and need to just accept that nobody's perfect and take the rough with the smooth? And even if my instinct is right and some of this stuff is a bit mad, do people ever change anyway? Will saying something actually help?

Would be really grateful for some honest opinions. Thank you

I could have written the same maybe 2 years ago.

"Feel ever so guilty posting this because I have a very loving, generous mother"

I can feel the enormous amount of guilt comnig through.

everything negative you say you find an excuse for her.

I would start by reading 'controlling parents' by Dan Neuarth (sp?) and then decide where to go from there.

I am reluctant to say too much as I suspect you will react and defend her to the hilt. At least for now.

But the honest truth is yes she is controlling, no she is not as wonderful as you tell yourself she is, and this is going to be a long journey. I also think your brother is more aware of what she is like. Do you know why he thinks she broke up his marriage?

You are not oversensitive and you have the right to be 100% in control of your own life.

YANBU. She is controlling! You seem to have a reasonably good grip on what she is, and why. Personally I wouldn't advise drastic measures like cutting her out of your life, but think you could become a happier person if you were to learn some techniques for 'managing' her and softening her impact on your family.

I suspect your brother would welcome a sincere heart-to-heart about her. The poor guy.

Thanks Armadillo - You're right that my instinct is to defend her but I've been thinking about this for long enough to realise that you've probably got a point! You're also bang on about the guilt - have felt it my whoe life.

My brother feels she undermined my SIL and made her feel inadequate - again, not through direct criticism but just by slightly back-handed comments designed to undermine. I honestly don't think she knows she's doing it but I do know what he means. Having said that, there was a lot more too it and he met someone else etc etc, he would argue that she made his relationship so bad that he was stuck between the two of them and it because unbearable.

ItsGrace Just have no idea where to begin when it comes to 'managing' her and I certainly wouldn't want to cut her out of my life, just want some events that she's not part of so I've got room to breathe!

I have had plenty of heart-to-hearts with my brother about it but we've also had huge arguments about it because I do think he blames a huge amount on her and doesn't take any responsibility for anything himself i.e. it's easier to blame my mother for the break-up of his marriage than accept that he was physically attracted to someone else (who he moved in with almost immediately) and that played a huge part in him leaving his wife and tiny daughter with very little warning. But I do accept that he's right about a lot of things. It's just that there are so many issues at play and talking it through with him isn't always helpful (though it's sometimes good for letting off steam) because neither of us is objective

I don't think you should even ask yourself if you are being over-sensitive. You have a right to your own feelings. Once we've grown up we shouldn't need and naturally don't want to be parented within an inch of our lives. However fond we are of our families we don't want to live in their pockets. If you feel smothered, that is a valid feeling (never mind who else would agree with you - I think a lot of people would, but that's not the point). You have every right to live your own life as an adult, not an extension of your mother.

The most important duty of a parent (in my strongly held, and I think quite reasonable, opinion) is to bring their children up to be independent. You won't always be there to look after them, all being well. They are people in their own right, and once they reach the age of majority have to make their own decisions. This does sometimes mean that they will have their own ideas and do things the way you wouldn't have done it yourself, but so be it. Love also means being able to let go.

It is kind of worrying that you say you have felt guilty your whole life. Guilty for what? What are you supposed to have done to her, monstrous child that you were? And if you were so bad/ungrateful etc, why does she even want to spend her every waking moment obsessed with you? It's kind of... unusual.

She had a difficult childhood, that is a great shame and of course you should be understanding. However it is not your duty, as her child, to make up for what she suffered. It is her duty, as a parent, to make sure the cycle is broken, that you have a better childhood than she did, and your duty in turn to make things better for your children. Sure you owe her respect and affection. She gave birth to you, brought you up etc. But a "normal" mother - and oh, how many shades of "normal" there are - would not expect your entire future to be at her disposal in payment.

The tricky bit is how you actually go about marking out your own space when she's so used to dominating your life. It will call for some firmness on your part. However tactfully you handle it, she will likely not understand at first and may be somewhat hurt. I would be so harsh as to suggest she will in fact appear to be much more hurt than she actually is, since she uses guilt as an effective weapon, especially now one of her children is breaking free and "I don't want to lose you too...".

somethinganything,

Your Mother is extremely controlling and her actions are all about wanting power and control over you. Even the overt "generosity" she has shown you is never without unwritten conditions attached to it. BTW she has never been generous towards you in any way shape or form even though it has been dressed up as generosity.

She may well have had a difficult childhood yes (these behaviours often stem from childhood and her own parents were likely to have been also controlling, it can be learnt behaviour) but it is still no excuse. Many people have had difficult childhoods and they have not all grown up to be controlling towards other family members.

Problem you have as well is that you have grown up with your Mum's controlling behaviours and have come to think of them as "normal" because she has conditioned you to think thus. Its a very hard realisation this, the one that your Mum has not actually acted nor is continuing to act in your best interests after all. BTW she will undoubtedly start trying to manipulate your DD when she is given the opportunity; these problems can too often become generational in nature. Two generations (your Mum and you) have already been affected by controlling behaviours, do not let your DD become the third generation to have the same. If you do not act decisively and make proper boundaries your Mum will attempt to control your DD as well either directly or indirectly.

Not at all surprised to read that your Brother got away from his Mum; this was the only way for him to establish any sort of boundary between him and her. I don't actually think your Brother has been too hard on her at all; it was the only way for your Brother to move forward. You will have to do the same, establish boundaries and ground rules with regards to her as she will continue to try and rule you otherwise. This is going to be very hard for you but you must do this for your own sake - and your DDs too. Your Mum still sees you as a child even though you are an adult who can make her own decisions with regards to your life. She sees you as somehow incapable.

You do not mention your Dad in all this; is he in your life these days?.

Do read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth. It is a good starting point for you.

Ten Signs Your Parents May Still Control You

Even today as an adult, you...

1. Feel disloyal when acting or feeling differently than your parents

1. Feel easily annoyed or impatient with your parents without knowing why

1. Feel confused by parental mixed messages

1. Are afraid to express your true feelings around your parents

1. Feel intimidated or belittled by your parents

1. Worry more about pleasing your parents than being yourself

1. Find it hard to emotionally separate from your parents

1. Talk to your parents more out of obligation than choice

1. Get tense when you think about being around your parents

10. Want to temporarily reduce or sever contact with a parent

This may also be helpful to you:-

Many people who do not have controlling parents, or other severe issues with their parents, seem to believe that a conversation about the problem will have a light-switch effect that will change your entire relationship. I do think that children in these situations have the unfortunate responsibility of informing their parents when lines have been crossed - but do not loose heart because your information has not "changed" them.

I recently read an article about "dealing with controlling parents", and two suggestions really struck me:

-Recognize the problem as belonging to your domineering parent. It's a problem deeply rooted in his or her own background and personality.

-Depersonalize the issues as they arise. You are not causing the controlling behavior in the people who are supposed to care for you.

Thanks Annie - yes, the guilt thing. I do feel responsible for her feelings I suppose and have done for much of my life. I think, like a lot of people who've had problems growing up, it was evident in her own parenting - there were lots of 'tantrums' and we all had to tiptoe around and to what we could to make her feel better. So, in answer to your question 'what sort of child were you?' - an incredibly well-behaved one who did everything she could to please her parents. I do see very clearly now that that's not how it should be and to be honest I feel as if the situation has reversed to an extent: I feel angry with her a lot of the time, and find myself snapping at her when I see her exhibiting all the old controlling characteristics, which is partly why I know I've got to do something about it. (Also, I'm expecting DC2 in a few weeks and feel I someone owe it to my kids to sort out my relationship with their grandmother so it doesn't impact on them.)

But as you say, the difficult thing is moving forwards - she's quite alone, my dad died a few years ago. she's completely put him on a pedestal and I just can't see her ever moving forwards. That's not meant to sounds callous, it was a huge loss and he was a great husband but she is someone who lives in the past a lot and bar the memories of her marriage and us, there's not much else.

I would also warn you that after writing this you may feel overwhelming guilt for a while. But keep talking about it if you can - there are always people to listen (on here if not in RL).

And the one thing that helped me get over excusing my mother's behaviour because she had had a hard life was asking myself whether it would be ok to treat my ds the same way. The answer was always no.

And it is hard to be objective - this is the way you were raised, that shapes your beliefs about things. But reading books and getting opinions from others can help about this.

Do you have a dp/dh and if so what does he think about your mother?

somethinganything,

re your comment:-

"Also, I'm expecting DC2 in a few weeks and feel I someone owe it to my kids to sort out my relationship with their grandmother so it doesn't impact on them").

Controlling does impact and badly so on people (you have been and continue to be profoundly affected by your Mum's overt need to control everything in your life including your child's birthday party) and these problems often become generational in nature as well. Your childhood too was not happy either was it, not really surprised to read that. You became super responsible and an overt people pleaser. You were taught by them that you did not matter.

You did not cause her problems to arise, you are not responsible for her.

Many men in such childhood dysfunctional family situations too act as bystanders acting out of self preservation and for want of a quiet life.

Like many children now adults who have been on the receiving end of toxic parenting as children you are trapped in the FOG - fear, obligation, guilt.

You MUST establish firm and consistent boundaries betwen you and her; these mainly at her instigation have become blurred at best. You must redefine boundaries.

This "sorting out of the relationship between you and your Mum" has to be two way. You cannot do all the work on your own nor should you be expected to. She may never apologise for her actions nor take any responsibility for them let alone want to actually work with you on this.

X-posted with Attila - really interesting, and also quite upsetting, reading your posts. I'll definitely look up the book you recommend

TheArmadillo - Yes, am already feeling a bit 'disloyal' (a word my mother uses a lot) having this 'conversation'. Re DH, he is very fond of my mother but does recognise the effect she's had and some of the ways she tries to control us. But I think he's quite removed from it, it's difficult to understand how big a thing it can be if it's not your own parent (as Attila pointed out) I think he sometimes feels he's been influenced by me moaning on about her and certainly thinks my brother exaggerates the effect she's had. But then again, there are times when she drives him mad and he does get quite irritable with her when she's around for any length of time. I had a chat with him after DD's birthday and I think his feeling was that we should just grin and bear it but be firm with her where possible.

I think, a bit like my dad, he has a tendency to laugh it off as an eccentricity (I did have one conversation with my Dad about it before he died and he did understand I think but tried to encourage me to just see the lighter side - he was much older than her and of a generation that I think just 'put up' with family issues rather than trying to resolve them).

She's someone who a lot of people are very fond of as a friend because she really goes out of her way for people. But I think that's a lot to do with her need to be liked by everyone. Nevertheless, I hear so often how wonderful she is that it makes me question my own take on the situation

Attila I'm sure you're right though I do feel like I've demonised my mum a bit and that maybe if you met her you'd feel differently. So, do I just sit down with her and talk about it? The thought of hurting her makes me feel sick, she's been through so much herself - though I do now wonder, as I'm typing this, at how much she talked to us about her own unhappy childhood, she does bring it up at every possible opportunity.

I have controlling rellies myself and I would not feel any differently about your Mother had I met her. I have seen what control does to people and it is not pretty to witness.

You are not hurting her by telling her although I do not for one minute think she will listen to you properly i.e take heed and act on what you say.

The effects on your own self are profound and are very sad. You can though break free but you will have to put a lot of hard emotional work in for your own self and make clear and concise boundaries for your own sake. This does not affect you either now; its your whole family unit now who are or will get the backwash of her need to control. "Grinning and bearing it" as your DH puts it actually does no-one any favours. I guess your Dad too was of similar mind so her behaviour remained unchecked. Your DH must establish a clear and present boundary with your Mum as well.

I come back to a point I made earlier:-
Many people (like your DH) who do not have controlling parents, or other severe issues with their parents, seem to believe that a conversation about the problem will have a light-switch effect that will change your entire relationship. I do think that children in these situations have the unfortunate responsibility of informing their parents when lines have been crossed - but do not loose heart because your information has not "changed" them.

I recently read an article about "dealing with controlling parents", and two suggestions really struck me:

-Recognize the problem as belonging to your domineering parent. It's a problem deeply rooted in his or her own background and personality.

-Depersonalize the issues as they arise. You are not causing the controlling behaviour in the people who are supposed to care for you.

I imagine it would be very difficult to broach this with her, though if you feel up to it that would be great! Might be a good idea to read a book first ...

There are some things you can do to try & reduce the "payoff" she gets from her controlling. It sounds as though she's heavily invested in living YOUR life the way she thinks hers should have been. And she feels starved of attention. Therefore, awarding her just so much attention - and no more - could be a useful way to start setting boundaries with your mum.

What would be a typical remark on your appearance? How would you normally respond?

Attila yes, it all makes sense - just makes me kind of shudder when I think of what's ahead.

ItsGraceagain - I'm sure you're right, I do need to get the book but no idea when the hell I'm going to read it! I've spent far too long online talking about this so far today when there's a million and one other things I should be doing but then again, it does feel so important. I've already tried to start limiting the attention she gets, for example, for as far back as I can remember there's always been one medical complaint or another and so these days I try to sound caring but don't get embroiled in it. It must sounds so callous to anyone listening in on our conversation but I've heard it soooo many times before. Equally if she tells me some horror story about someone she knows who is experiencing something dreadful or has been the victim of crime (she does love a depressing story) I just try to respond with a swift "dear me, that's awful, anyway how's work?" or something. There's a lot of negativity that emanates from her and I've taken to ignoring it or changing the subject as a way of making her realise I don't want to engage with it.

Re my appearance, it'll be things like "do you want me to book you a hair appointment?" i.e. your hair looks crap, it needs doing. Or "ooh, isn't it time you replaced that bag/jumper/pair of shoes, it's terribly old". She does that less now because I have snapped back at her so often in recent months or just ignored it, but instead she'll buy me things and then I'll feel guilty about how much money she spends on me. (She's not badly off but she hasn't got a lot to spare either.)

And the stuff about mixed messages that Attila wrote really makes sense. I'm v skinny - naturally as it happens though I was anorexic for a time years ago (the classic passive rebellion I suppose). She makes a real fuss about 'am I eating enough' etc but then exhibits a certain sort of pride at the fact that I'm really skinny when talking to other people about it "well, you know, xxxx is xx size, you'd never believe she'd just had a baby". I hate it, I just can't stand the thought of her discussing my body with other people it absolutely makes me cringe. It means I massively overreact when she makes an innocent comment about even the size of my bump because I just don't want my body shape discussed. Again, she has real weight issues herself, has been on a diet as long as I can remember so I think it's just deflection of a kind.

"do you want me to book you a hair appointment?" Er no thank you very much, if and when I decide I need a hair appointment I will book my own! I have a telephone and am not afraid to use it.

Oh, but of course you made an appointment with the wrong hairdresser (ie one you chose for yourself), so you can't be trusted.

Probably not much help but my grandparents didn´t come to my parties-just my friends who I invited.

It might also help to not let her pay for anything & to refuse her gifts-unless for b/day or Christmas!

Gawd, something, she sounds like a huge emotional drain! Quite honestly, you seem to be doing most of what you could reasonably be expected to do in terms of cutting off the flow of bad news ...

I'm hoping that having posted here will, in itself, give you that extra confidence boost when restricting her level of interference. Of course you can just say "No, thank you" to her various offers but it will take confidence & determination ... because, when she demands an explanation, you'll have to tell her "I just don't want it thanks. How's work?"

I also find it really rude when people talk about my body (Mum went through a phase of telling everyone about my very embarrassing health problems). I told her off, quite bluntly, in public. Had to do it a few times but she has stopped that now.

Any chance of saying you'd rather have a voucher for the clothes??

Thanks for posting back in your busy day
Good luck! It IS worth the effort ...

Thanks, all.

Grace yes, I think saying no to things a bit more often might help. I've been quite strict about big presents for DD given 'just because' and suggested saving them for xmas or b'day. Ha! Like the voucher idea, though I think the answer, ultimately, is just to say no altogether.

I'd just like to say, once again, that not all of what my mother does is controlling and manipulative, she's lovely and caring at times and there are occasions when I really want to talk to her just because. But there are many, many more times when I do it out of obligation.

'The Dance of Anger' by Harriet Lerner is a very sound book and helpful if you want to make changes in intimate relationships.
Sorry can never do a link to Amazon, but it is on their web site.

I had to tell my mother to stop talking to me about my appearance. She is obsessed with weight. I am a size 14 and would be healthier as a 12, but I am not particularly motivated to lose weight and my mother talking about it just irritates and depresses me.

I know she still thinks about my weight as her first thought every time we meet! But she doesn't sat anything about it anymore,and that is a whole lot better.

Let your mum know that it makes you reluctant to see her because she makes these comments and that you go away feeling upset (even if the comments are nice). This will make it very difficult for her to carry on.

Basically you need to reprogram her - just keep repeating how it makes you feel. You can tell her that you know she means it to be supportive but that you don't experience it as supportive, and what you really want from her is NO comments at all on your appearance.

clouded thanks, have just looked it up and it looks v promising, will see if they've got it at the local library

earthstar I feel your pain! And like your approach - that's something I think I could actually bring myself to do i.e. just explain that her saying xx actually upsets me even if she means it well.

somethinganything the appearance stuff may be relatively easy to change because no criticism of your mother is required -you are just asking her to help you and respect your feelings.

I went too far when challenging my mum and said that she and her sisters were obsessed with weight and were a nightmare to be around because of it! I didn't need to say that I realise now. And in their world "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" is true...but it isn't true in my world.

So there are two sides to things but my mum didn't want to make me feel bad and depressed so she changed her behaviour. It has improved our relationship for me if not for her!

Earthstar I suppose that's true at least in that it's not a direct criticism. I did start to have the conversation with her about appearances, in particular weight, in summer - there was an awful occasion when she and another mother started loudly discussing the weight gain of the other woman's daughter (how much she ate, how her mother worried about it, how it had affected her confidence growing up) - all this while the girl was actually sitting at the table! The girl was really upset and I was absolutely furious with them both. I did make a point of saying to her afterwards that I just didn't think a detailed commentary on someone else's physical appearance was a normal topic of conversation and that I absolutely didn't want DD growing up with that. She implied that I was being over-sensitive but it did seem to make things better for a time. So, as you say, it may have improved things for me but not for her.