I haven't spoken to my mother since October and feel like a pile of rubbish.

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I have tried to have a decent relationship with my mother but after 14 yor so years of trying I have had enough.

She didn't raise me - she had me when she was 17 and nobody knew she was pregnant until the night I was born. My gran raised me and I was raised to believe that my mum was my sister until I was told at the age of 6 that she was actually my mum. I didn't see very much of my mum during childhood in any case as there was a lot of bad blood between my gran, mum and my uncles and aunts. Lots of rows between everyone. I can only remember seeing my mum about half a dozen times.

My gran was very abusive (she was abusive to my mum, aunts and uncles when they were growing up as well, I think now she was prob mentally ill, either that or evil/mad) and my mum knew that she was leaving me with an abusive woman. She said that she didn;t have a choice but to leave me to be raised by my gran but god knows what went on. My upbringing was very unhappy - periods of normailty interspersed with periods of quite severe physical, emitional and sexual abuse (oh god I am sat here with my heart racing at typing that I have never admitted such to anybody before).

I got to know my mum when I left gran's house when I was 16, I moved into a hotel where I got a job as a waitress, my mum found out and came down to see me. Since then we have tried to build a relationship.

It has been hard. She never likes to talk about how she left me with my gran - she is very much of the opinion that I should 'get over' things and not let the past drag me down. She didn;t tell me whi my father was until I was 25 because before she didn't like to discuss it. She doesn't want to recognise that I suffered - in her eyes she is the most important victim because she lost her daughter. She went on to have my brother who she idolises (another bone of contention I suppose).

She has said the worst day of her life was when I was born and she has never been able to recover from it. She has been in therapy for donkey's years.

Anyway, to cut a very long story short, my gran died last March (I had not seen her from the day I moved out 15 years previously). My mum was grief stricken (she had not spoken to my gran for about 25 years either, none of her 5 children had spoken to her). It was like Ma Walton had died, all the family (bearing in mind that my mum and her siblings hadn't spoken to each other either) all gathered together like a little clan, reminiscing about being raised by my gran. It was very odd.

Anyway since then my mum has announce that she has forgiven my gran for what she did, and that she is reconciled. My mum insists that I forgive my gran as well and visit the grave etc, but I can't.

My gran died intestate therefore my mum and her 4 siblings are due to share my gran's estate of approx 300K. Althoigh none of them spoke to gran for years they have no compunction in spending her money and going through the house and dividing up the contents.

Me and mum had a row in october because I asked for photos of me as a child which my gran had. My mother refused saying that I was not entitled and that the photos belonged to her and her siblings. I do not posess one photo of myself before the age of 16. I know it is nothing but I really want old school photos of myself etc.

Since october we have not spoken, not at Christmas or new year or anything. She has spoken to my dd intermittently, and sent her a £20 postal order for her birthday and Christmas. This is not normal - normally my mum buys dd nice presents for her birthday and Christmas.

I spoke to my brotehr lasy night, he said that my mother refuses to speak to me until I apologise for being demanding. Apparently she is worried that I will ask for a share of teh money to which I am not entitled and I will not get a penny, apparently. Until I apologise 'she is dead to me' according to my brotehr.

I don't think I should apologise. I just feel like I am a bloody piece of rubbish thrown away, that i am utterly worthless and always have been to her, her list of importanec in her life is herself, my brother, her job, her best mate, and 27 various other people until you get to me and dd. I am sick of trying to despereatley try and have a normal mother daughter relationship.

I didn't sleep at all last night and feel awful, I need to speak to someone but feel i would blow up. DP knows what has been going on and he thinks my mother is selfish. My dd is in the middle wondering what the hell is going on.

Sorry very long post and prob should have namechanged but i just feel utterly like the lowest of the low and don;t know what to do for the best.

Oh how distressing

Have you managed to get any counselling yourself? I am wondering if maybe it is more important to learn how to forgive your mum instead of your gran? I only say this because it's possible that your mum has suffered from similar abuse and has seemngly worked really hard with counselling to get to the point where she can let her past go and forgive her own mum.

However, the fact that she knowingly left you in such an abusive family is something I know must be hard to forgive.
Perhaps with counselling you can get to the point where you are strong enough to say to your mum that it's important for YOU to talk about her leaving you there. It just seems to me that you really need or want to have this conversation and she really does owe you this much.

Do you think you were being demanding? Would some kind of an apology open up the communication enough for you to sit down and tell her that you need to talk about it so you can start letting it go?

I really don´t know what to say.

Am v. tempted to say cut contact-but then I am a b!tch.

I don´t think you need to apologise for asking for photos of you as a child.

Is there anyone who has any that you could make copies of if they don´t want to give them to you?

As hard as it is to let go ( and you never will completly as something will trigger memories)concentrate on your own family ,your DP,DD & yourself. You are not responsible for your mother and her actions. Try and replace school photo's by contacting friends reunited and looking up your school. I managed to get hold of mine that way.
Take care.

she sounds like a product of her abusive upbringing and she was very young when she had you.

neither of these factors are an excuse for her bad behaviour though...

it seems like you're doubting yourself as to whether your feelings are justifiable? well, considering what you have gone through- you actually deserve much, much better.

her own guilt at leaving you in a household she knew to be abusive is probably getting in the way of her being able to have a decent and properly loving relationship with you... until she resolves that, you're unlikely to be able to have a fulfilling relationship with her.

in my opinion, what you need to do is work on yourself, focussing all this energy (and i KNOW how much energy being sad and angry uses up) on getting things straight in your own head.

can you afford counselling? when the types of abusive you've mentioned have happened, you really need professional support to untangle the mental mess it creates.

i found a counsellor for £25 an hour who i saw twice a month... helped alot.

types of ABUSE you've mentioned.

Thanks veery much everyone.

No, I have never had any counselling. However I have been depressed on occasions which has been medicated with anti depressants (which I stopped taking after 5 minutes).

I think what doesn't help is that I had my own dd when I was 17 - and I know that I would never have let anyone else raise her, let alond someone I knew was being abusive.

Also my mother has never thought she did anything wrong. She has never apologised for leaving me in that hellhole, like I say she thinks she is the victim, she was the one who lost her daughter.

I wish I could forgive - Fanjo you are probably right that if I was able to swallow my pride and say sorry that wopuld help. But I am sick of putting my own feelings aside in order to support hers. And I have done nothing wrong I don't think. I just feel so consumed with real anger towards her, which I have never really felt bef9ore, i have alwasy been like a labrador puppy around her, constantly looking for approval and doing what she said, and when she has slapped me down (so to speak) crawled whimpering in a corner, and waiting for her to 'notice' me again.

I know it is not healthy for me to feel so consumed by it all, and I think it is probably well worth having counselling, is it worth beiong referred by the NHA or os this best private do you think.

Thanks very much for your answers everyone.

GetOrf

Abuse like you've suffered (and to this day feel the after effects of) can often filter down the generations. It is to your credit that you have not done the same to your DD as these toxic and abusive people did to you.

You did not do anything to cause this, it is not your fault this happened.

You will never receive an apology though; such people do not accept any responsibility for their actions, let alone apologise for anything they've done. They are all too quick to come out with a laundry list of the other person's "shortcomings". Like many such people you are now trapped in FOG - "fear, obligation, guilt".

BACP have a list of counsellors and they don't cost the earth either. NHS counselling can take an age and services are patchy. Counsellors too are like shoes; you need to find one that "fits".

You may want to read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. Its a good starting point.
Also another good book is "When you and your Mother cannot be friends".

You may also want to read the most recent "We took you to Stately Homes" thread; this is for children now adults who have suffered at the hands of such toxic abusive people. Many of those women on there could well relate to what you have written and so it is highly recommended.

Just wanted to say how sorry I am Getorf. Are you close to your brother? Does he see your pov at all? If so, I would concentrate on having a reasonable relationship with him because what is so sad in all this is that you sound so alone.

Thanks very much Atilla - I would not have a clue where to start with counselling so the organisation you have given is a good start, I think it is well worth paying for it rather than going via NHS. I did lurk on the first stately homes thread, I didn't post as I hate admitting anything like this. I just let everyone assume my life is normal. Was with dp for 3 years before I told him anything (he knew mum didn't raise me, but didn't know the whys and wherefores). People at work ask if I have been down to Devon to see my mum since xmas (I used to go every month or so) and I keep lying because I don't want to admit that we are not talking because it sounds like a jeremy Kyle life).

God knows what I rambling omn about, sorry!

I have been looking at the stately homes thread but I think it must be about 9 threads along now, would they mind me barging in and banging on about my tales of woe?

Thank you also for book recommendations I will certainly get those.

I am normally a very laid back person and don't get riled, however I feel like i am full of bitterness - there is a Larkin quote which I read some months back which seems to describe me to a t - 'full of black, twitching, boiiling HATE'. I don't want to be this person, I don't want to be someone who hates. Why have I managed to bumble through my tewnties and somehow fall of a cliff emotionally in the last 6 months? I don't know who I am anymore.

My daughter is precious and I also feel that I am going to lose her - she is 14 and is on aboout going to boarding 6th form. My beautiful daughter is pretty much my entire family. I know she has got to grow up but i am so scared at the thought of being without her. What will I do for the next 40 years? What will I be for?. I don't want another baby but I want her as a baby again, almost.

God I am unhinged.

Bibbity (your name makes me lol!) thank you, yes I am close to my brother, I only got to know him when he was 8 but that has never seemed to matter really. However he lives in america so never see him - he is on a work visa so cannot come back to the UK for 18months at a time. I did see him at xmas, he knows what is going on but understandably doesn't want to be stuck in the middle and get involved. Plus he is only 22 - why should he deal with all this shit!!

So sorry to hear what you have been through.

Probably good advice to go into counselling -to express all that anger in a safe environment.

I can really relate to that cycle of wanting approval and not getting it. I had a watershed moment when I walked away from doing that (frightening but liberating) and interestingly my parents paid me more respect from that point on.

There was no confrontational moment - I just worked on myself and changed my behaviour and how I felt about me. I realised they weren't going to change and that I didn't need their approval after all and got affirmation from non-toxic people instead.

We have no control over the abusive, dysfunctional behaviour of others. We can only work on our own emotional health (and have a responsibility to do so for the benefit ouf our own kids, too.)

I did find it benefitted me to forgive my parents eventually. Freed me up emotionally.

Now, with my mother, I work on the basis that she is unable to give me much love, so I don't expect it (and therefore am not disappointed!), and I just look for ways to be nice to her.

Hopefully your mum will change her mind about the photos - seems reasonable for you to have some. Can you offer to get them professionally copied so you both have a set?

From all your posts on MN it sounds you like you've created a brilliant life for yourself and your family from a not very promising beginning. Remember to love yourself and be proud of what you've achieved.

I really think some kind of counselling would help you. I know people throw counselling into the mix all the time but I have found it really helpful at times.

If you get a good counsellor she/he might be able to help you to untie all the complexities of the relationships involved and talk to you about blame and bitterness how to get through or past it.

I can see how your mum would paint all these experiences as being all about her, certainly she had a horrible horrible childhood by the sounds of things , and can see too why you feel so bitter.
However, counselling might make you more able to look at things as they were, sort through them and give you techniques for dealing with the issues they create, and then help you to move positively towards being able to live the life you have now in a more happy way.

Also - I think there's a lot to be said for just being very honest with your mum about the way you feel. Counselling would probably help to give you the strength to be able to do this without feeling like she is putting you down or dismissing your anger and pain. or perhaps as Polly says you might get to a point where you decide you don't want that confrontation and choose to walk away.

I assume your mum knows your gran was abusive to you?

was she forced tolet your gran bring you up?

diddl - yes she did know about the physical and emotional abuse but not about the other. They were all (my mum and her 4 siblings) pretty much battered as children, and also a load of hideous nasty stuff i.e. when my mum was 8 she had a cat which had kittens, my gran forced her to drown the kittens in a bucket.

My uncle was around (he is 8 years older than me) for most of my childhood until he got to the point where he couldn't take it any more and ran off to London.

ALl of us (her 5 kids and me) ran off when we were 15/16/17/18, never to return. My mum was a bit different as she had me, she was then able to stay in the house however she wasn't allowed to pick me up etc. Social services were involved due to the fact that my mum had not told anyone she was pregnant, as far as I have been told the HV advised that my mum let my gran raise me as my mum was so young etc. My mum then moved out when i was about 6 months or so. I can see my mum's point in this, she was obviously scared and completely screwed up what with having a baby etc.

i just don't understand how this has all been so easily forgiven? My mum (since my gran's death) carries a picture of my gran in her wallet along with a pic of my brother and daughter. They is no picture of me in there. I know this sounds so childish.

Thanks again everyone. I know that my mum's relationship with my gran is completely seperate from mine, and that i should be pleased that after nearly 50 years of fuck ups my mum can find some peace and let her feelings about her mother go. But in reality I just don't understand how she can.

Polly thank you for those kind words - are you a name changer? I would remember pollytechniqure!!

Hi Getorf

Re your comment:-

"I have been looking at the stately homes thread but I think it must be about 9 threads along now, would they mind me barging in and banging on about my tales of woe?"

Absolutely not one bit, please do post on that thread. It is open to all and many posters on there do find it both useful and helpful to them. I suggested it too as it may well help you, as it has helped my own self.

With best wishes to you and your DD.

Getorf - so sorry. I have no advice. I have been so lucky with my family. But just wanted you to know that I feel for you. You always seem so upbeat and cheerful - with all this eating away at you. I'd give you a hug if I were there

Thanks Atilla I will certainly go on that thread, thank you

GetOrfMoiLand not much more to add especially after Attila as she gives the best advice in these matters

but just to say be strong, and I hope you find peace of mind,
it is very hard esp when other people ask about your parents, don't be embarrassed to say you don't go to visit her anymore

Thanks very mcuh again.

I think I have been able to deal with all of it by completely pretending to be someone different, I look at the person i was before I was 16 as someone different from me, someone i feel very sorry for but someone who is in no way connected to me as i am now. Does that make any bloody sense?

I normally am upbeat - i have got a helluva lot to be happy about, dd is an angel, my DP is lovely and so suppirtive, and his family (who are NORMAL) are great as well. Plus am happy and healthy.

Just in the last 9 months or so since gran died I just feel like everything has come crawling out the woodwork, and I cannot stop thinking about things.

Plus, MN has been SO helpful, I can't tell you. I used to not think, talk or anything about my gran at all. But on here I have been able to speak freely about the nice things which happened in my childhood, and actually laugh at some of it (my gran's vile cooking for instance, her nutcase travelling escapades, for instance she thought it would be a good idea to travel to Kenya with me when I was about 10, and 'oh we will sort a hotel or something when we get there!'). MN has been a lifesaver in this regard.

I hope hope hope dd will grow up and look on her childhood as being happy, I really do. Obviously it wasn't the best, what with me having her when I was 17 and her father buggering off, and plus I was skint for donkey's years. Bless her I am so thankful I had her to love and look after when I was so young, I think I would have gone of the rails if I didn't.

I am so sorry you feel so low GetOrf.

When someone aged 17 conceals a pregnancy until the day of delivery, there must be HUGE reasons for doing that. Especially if she was being abused the whole time. She must have been terrified of the repercusions of admitting the pregnancy and similarly terrified at the thought of actually having a baby to look after when she had, for 9 months, kidded herself she wasn't actually pregnant. To be able to be let off the hook, so to speak, by leaving you with her mum, was probabloy a relief to her at the time and is probably a source of enormous guilt now.

Her behaviour towards you now however should be about reconcilliation, making it up to you somehow, showing you her love. And she isn't doing that for you as I wonder if she has become trapped emotionally as that 17 year old girl she was. I am not convinced that even with all the councelling she has had and could have that she will ever fully recover enough from her experience to know how to deal with your feelings as her daughter.

I am tempted to say cut her out of your life. I am a big believer in shedding the people that bring you down in life, but as its you mum, I am not so sure. The first thing to do would def be have come counselling, but also keep your focus on your daughter and being the best mum you can be to her. (Which it sounds like you are doing a good job of).

Then perhaps write her a letter, not apologising but saying how you are not after any of the money but you would like to be able to open the lines of communication again. Perhaps you could borrow the photos to scan and give them back? If your mother is still hostile towards you, then perhaps it really might be time to cut contant...

God thats a hard dilemma. I'm so sorry, its very sad. x

Yes, been through several name-changes over 2 years on MN! Not a prolific poster though.

It all sounds utterly horrendous. I'm not surprised your mum finds it hard to face you and have a decent conversation about it, and is still being dysfunctional (no photo of you in her wallet). You've both been through hell.

Hopefully, your mum is still on her journey of being healed and sorted out and eventually might be able to move on to getting things right in her relationship with you.

Sometimes people reinvent the past to try come to terms with it. Their guilt can be so overwhelming that they can't acknowledge it to themselves and certainly can't admit it to others. They see themselves as victims and that lets them off the hook to righting their own wrongs.

And because those wrongs look impossible to correct anyeay, they do mental gymnastics about the past to make the present bearable to live with. It's the only way they can cope with their pain.

Respect to your mum that she's forgiven your gran, but she's got there after a long time in therapy. Do you think she may want you to be reconciled with the past because she genuinely has found some peace and wants you to have that, too? And then that may be a basis for you to go forward together?

She needs to be sensitive about where you're at, though. You can't do it all in a day.

I'm a great believer in choosing to forgive as an act of the will, and the feelings of forgiveness following on afterwards. But you've got a lot of emotional stuff to work through (perhaps with a professional) to get to that place of release and healing.

"Falling of the cliff emotionally" sounds like a very reasonabe and dare I say healthy thing to be happening. You can't repress a past like yours, and to have to explore it is going to be rewarding in the long run.

[By the way, complete tangent, but your "Coininbin" story still has me smiling. Thanks for sharing that ]

Hi Getorf

You are not unhinged - you have come through all that shite amazingly well, perhaps broken and bruised unside but you have not carried forward the awful legacy that is the only thing that has been left for you.

I have to echo other posters and say check out the 'stately homes' threads on here, I have found the book 'will i ever be good enough?' by Karyl McBride hugely helpful and I think you will too.

I suspect that your gran and you mother have some degree of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (while obviously I am not qualified to diagnose anyone). Remember that they did what they did because there is something wrong with them, not because there is something wrong with you, iykwim.

And just to add very unmumsnet hugs and also maybe even a hun as I am dealing with very similar stuff atm myself.

So for you.

It does get better though.

Thanks Bigusbumus and Polly.

Bigus - you are so right. God knows how anyone can conceal a pregnancy, and how she felt she would deal with it when the day came. I do feel very sorry for that 17 year old girl that she was. Your whole post makes so much sense. Also agree that she could have got stuck as a 17 year old. That makes so much sense as she is incredibly immature emotionally - she has strops, storms off, a vile temper, yet as also incresibly emotionally labile, cries at the drop of a hat etc. It is like a teenager's way of thinking, so thanks for that insight.
However she is very self involved - she can only ever see anything from her popint of view, and she is never wrong. i have had really frustrating discussion with her before about stupid petty things for because even if she knows she is wrong about something she never ever backs down.

She is a very difficult operson but I can see that she is that way because of a horrendous upbringing. But there again I also had a shittu time and I am not nuts (well, not yet anyway).

Letter - I think that would be a good idea howveer I think it would ened up being 856 pages long!

Lol at coinbin - everyone else, I wrote a thread about 6 months ago where I was going with a colleague over the severn bridge, I saw a sign on the Uk side saying Coinbin and Manned. I idly wondered to my colleague why there were welsh signs on the uk side of the river and also what Coinbin and Manned actually meant. He just pissed himself and said it's Coinbin as in a bin for coins, and manned as in a booth with a man in it, it's in English you twat.

I lolled about that for ages, well in my defence it looks Welsh! Thanks Polly i forgot about that!