'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

chairmum - it sounds like you are having a difficult life at the mo.. but being on your own to be able to sort out your own feelings and confidence is a good thing. You can deal with a toddler and a baby free from any complicated emotional turmoil by having a husband there who isn't "there" for you. iykwim.
The only way of stopping flesh eating bugs is to cut them out. and leave the healthy self to heal.

greyskull- Welcome to the thread. I just wanted to say want a stong courageous individual you are. For a little girl to have dealt with something of that magnitude all by herself. I know that is not the point and the fact that you were more afraid of your own father's anger. That because of that you learnt to just be quiet and put his need for you to not be seen or heard above your own desperate need to get emotional support shows what a heelish kind of upbringing you must have had .
Still if anything positive is to come out of this it is that despite all this you are still here and standing strong.
I am so glad you are seeking support with all this. It has come a little late, but this 'is' you showing self love and giving 'yourself' back the power so to speak. Hug to you. Please use this thread to post and vent as much as you are able. xx

Chairmum it will be a sad day for you but speaking from experience when I split with my ex H, it set me free to be the real me, as like you I had married someone emotionally retarded. I raised my two DSs for two years and bonded with them without the trauma of a flagging relationship and the word 'Failure' staring at me in the face on a daily basis. I used to tell myself my marriage did not fail, it 'ENDED' which is different and helped build my self esteem. Two years later I met my soul-mate, married him and realise how wrong my first husband was for me. He only perpetuated what my DM had started as he was emotionally unavailable. My therapist told me that I had effectively married my mother! I have never seen him since! All marriages have their ups and downs but being with someone who is not afraid to show they love you is a WONDERFUL feeling and is helping me deal with my past. This thread has helped me vent the rages that I would normally internalise and then take out on my DH. I still have a long way to go. Stay strong

Ah yes...If I had married the man I was with before DH I would have married my mother. lucky escape!
Never saw it at the time though and it tore me apart everytime he rejected me.
It must feel very raw and painful now but but Ive found the darkest of times are followed by something quite different.

Thankyou for all the wishes.

It has been a sad day in some ways but I'm actually feeling more positive than I have in weeks. Everyone said I would feel better once he was gone, and it took a few hours, but I'm thinking about what he now has, and what I have and I don't envy him.

I actually think I married my father rather than my mother (except without the shouting), but I know what you mean.

I got some great news today, which really helped - I have my NHS counselling sessions starting next week! And at a time when a friend can really easily have DS.

I know I'll come down from this high soon enough, but for the moment, the peace is an amazing respite. For the moment I'm accepting its over. Still scared about how I will cope with the baby but generally finding my own strength, which I hope to carry through to sorting out the problems in my head about my family.

I know one of the problems my mother had (of many) was that she defined herself in relation to the man/men she had at the time, and I am not going to spend any longer making that mistake. I am a strong, proud woman who is worth something for herself!

Chairmum - that sounds fantastic news. You sound really very positive.

Hello all, have not been able to log on for a while and I need some time to read all the posts since I was last on.

But just now I read the first post I saw at random and it was by Chairmummiaow about her H leaving. It must be fate because I have gone through the most awful night with DH. I don't feel I can really talk about it right now, but I think I am secretly longing for the space and peace that I know I would have if DH left. I want him to leave. I know I have married the wrong man for me. He's not a bad person at all, but he is simply not right for me. I didn't even know who i really was when i met him so it would have impossible for me to have met the right man then, so there is no shame in realising I have made a very very big mistake. The only reason we are not splitting up at this very moment is because of the DC's. It would devastate them if their daddy moved out and I simply cannot bring myself to do that to them. I just can't.

I do also feel a bit scared of being on my own, but I am sure I would be ok, in fact better then just 'ok' if we split up. I think perhaps the time to split up is not quite now for me/us. I want to go back to work and not feel completely dependent on DH. I think having a job will give me the strength and courage and confidence to end things with DH. Perhaps calling the marriage a mistake is wrong. It has just run it's course. It was never going to last and it has come to it's natural end.

Calvados, your story is like a fairytale to me. I want to meet my soul mate and I know he is out there somewhere. It's so sad that it couldn't be DH because he is a good and decent man. But he does not have the capacity to empathise and show compassion and I need somebody with those qualities.

Exotic, I know it is hard when you have little ones and they must come first. You are right to wait until you are stronger, you may even feel differently then about your DH. Only time will tell.

The thing with me is that I had relationship counselling when I was in my mid twenties, ( he didn't even attend Relate with me) worked part time, met interesting people and I think that was the final nail in the coffin for us. It confirmed what I knew all long but was too weak to deal with. I'd made a big mistake and married someone just like my mum. He was silent most of the time and did not even like to engage in conversation. I don't think I ever felt close to him. Imagine, if I had spent the rest of my life with my ex H? I would be as miserable as my parents. I suppose in hindsight I didn't know any better. I was emotionally rejected every time. It wasn't his fault, he was more damaged than me, he never ever knew love as a child (grew up in the care system) and did not know how or want to help himself. But oh what a difference now - the joy of someone loving me and not afraid to say it. Talking about all little silly things, tolerance, but above all knowing that he REALLY loves me and accepts that I am a complete nut! I feel so different and thank God that I had the courage to go it alone when I did. Those two years were hard, tiring too but I don't regret them as we had fun and bonded really well. I became stronger for it and when I met my now DH that's when my toxic DM and DS got very jealous and tried to ruin it! My DH was firm with them and they realised that he put me before everything and that I had finally found someone that loved me and that they had not. But it's only now that I am dealing with the past, I have been so angry at times and taken it out on my DH but at least I am deaing with it. I have not seen my DM and DS for 8 1/2 years and they have missed my kids growing up.

By chance I saw a psychic two years ago and I put one question to him about my DM. I asked him just this, 'why is my mum the way she is?' He told me that my DM was a very unhappy woman who did not get the life she wanted and was bitter and resentful that she did not leave her marriage and that I did. He talked about her jealousy, he knew so much about her and I was shocked to hear him say the words that I had been forbidden to ever say about my DM. Two years on from the psychic I discovered Louise Hay and Doreen Virtue and got into angel therapy. I found my niche and like-minded people and it opened up a whole new wonderful world. Last month I found this thread and the daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website which has been so helpful. All the wonderful brave women on here make me feel proud to be a woman. We really are the stronger sex and we share our stories without passing judgement. I feel like shouting from the roof tops, no longer is it going to destroy me. I was lucky that I was the 'scapegoat' daughter that got away. My DS is stuck in her fantasy world that she is the golden child and is superior to me. It doesn't affect me now the way it did a month ago. I was raging then, seriously, my 'blow hole' was in melt down! I now look down on them - the poor souls. Still not too sure about forgiveness though. As I said, I have a long way to go and always count my blessings but as Budha said,

'You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection'. Respect....

calvados thank you for your response. I am sooo happy that you have met the right person for you. I can tell just how good things are between you from your posts.

The thing with my DH is that he is at heart a good, kind and decent person. But, he lacks the ability to empathise, just like his mother (stands to reason) and is emotionally 'undeveloped' in that sense. I think as some of you have said, when I married him I married my 'father' who also was completely unable to empathise and was therefore capable of inflicting terrible psychological/mental/emotional cruelty on me without batting an eyelid and felt no remorse afterwards. DH and his mother are unfortunately built in the same mould. They seem to have no boundary that they won't cross because they know it would cause incredible pain to the other person. I know this comes from the inability to empathise, to feel another's pain as if it was their own, which is what stops people from being cruel to others, whether physically or mentally.

DH has said some incredibly cruel things to me. Admittedly this has only been during times of extreme stress and pressure, when our relationship has been under huge strain. But then I always think that it is really only at times of stress that we all show what we are really made of. And all these people, my father, DH, DH's mother, when under extreme stress have shown they have a very, ugly toxic side to them. Of course they are not all bad all the time, but not everyone has a truly ugly side, we all have our 'dark' side, but I honestly believe that some people, usually those who have more insight and self awareness and empathy, are less dark than others, far less harmful, far less toxic; their dark side is tolerable, for others it is not and if you are within their vicinity and are vulnerable, you can get very, deeply hurt.

I don't think DH is so bad that I have to immediately cut him out, I think there is some hope that he can develop his ability to empathise, if he is willing to do the work necessary, which he seems to be open to.

Exotic, that sounds very positive. You have a very balanced view. There is hope and that counts for alot!

exotictraveller, have you considered Asperger's Syndrome in DH and MIL?

exotic - I'm glad you can see some hope in your DH, and I hope you can both work on it.

My H is - and I am only beginning to realise the extent of this now I'm really looking at our relationshop from the outside - unable to empathise too, and unable to communicate his feelings. The difference is that, at the moment at least he seems unwilling to work on that - if your DH recognises his weaknesses and wants to do something about it them wish you both every success.

The only thing I will say though, as a person who has had to realise that her partner was lying to her about his feelings for some unspecified but not insignificant period of time, is that the the fact that he couldn't bring himself to tell me how serious his feelings (or lack thereof were) until he got to the point where he had given up. That has hurt me the most through this. If he doesn't already know, telling your DH how serious a problem his lack of empathy is for you will show both of you how important it is for him to change - and if he doesn't try to change when he knows it might break you both, you know he probably never will.

evening ladies.
Just trying to get myself together for tomorrow, my mother is descending for a visit with some of her wierd friends.
I have been ruminating (sp?) over the my childhood and even though we have a "working" relationship now I have deep seated issues with her and it is driving me mad knowing that I will have to return back into my old "invisible" self tomorrow to get through it in the least stressful way possible.
Sorry for whinging...

No, it's okay, Greyskull. I go there every three weeks or so (down from every 2 days, hurrah) and so do many others here

You might even surprise yourself! The more knowledge you have about what's going on, the easier it becomes to detach from it. As soon as your detachment begins for real, the less 'payback' the other person gets and the smoother it all gets
More 'superficial', for sure, but who wants under-the-skin when it's like that??!

This isn't something you work at, it just happens as part of your own process. The world is kind that way! Meanwhile, if you feel very stressed around your mum & her cohort, try a simple and effective trick. Imagine a protective bubble round yourself. Like a one-way mirror, everyone outside your bubble is looking at their own reflection. Inside, you can clearly see out but feel safe because you're inside your bubble

If this is similar to, but different from, a tool that your counsellor has created with you, stick with the one you've created. If not - try it, it works!

The first time I spent time with my mum, "in my bubble", she rang me later to say she was concerned that I'd seemed detached.
"Yes," I said, "I was."

Good luck.

Arrghg just had a call from Mum, Dad is off work and the visitors haven't bought outdoor clothing so my plan to take them out for a walk rather than being confined in the house has gone out of the window. And my dad is coming... AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

There have been some really shocking posts since I last posted and I really feel for what you all went through, and still relive in your minds. Like I've written before, some bad things that people do, I just could never forgive.

It is easier for an outsider to say they wouldn't forgive than the victim I think though. It is definitely true, I think, that your brain tells you that what happened to you was normal, probably as a coping mechanism, then you are shocked all over again as you gain more knowledge of the world and realise it was not normal. The things that happened to me weren't as bad as what happened to some of you, so I thought that maybe that was why it was easy for my brain to think of those things as normal. But reading what people have written, it looks like even the most shocking abuse which most people would recognise as abuse can be normalized by the brain! Is part of it because we so want to have people we can call our parents/other relatives so we find reasons to rationalise or forgive their behaviour?

Re men and Aspergers Syndrome - a lot of men are a lot less good at showing emotion and being perceptive of others' emotions than women. Some of this is normal due to the different brain wiring of the sexes, but with Aspergers it seems to me like it is the same thing but much more extreme. There is a test you can do online to find out where you are on the scale. Also there is a thread on here about people with DHs with Aspergers where people describe what people with Aspergers are like in day to day life. These things might give you some idea of how likely it is that your DH has AS if you think he has it?

I tried doing the test as though I was my dad, which I know could be inaccurate because I'm not him, but my brother also thinks very strongly that he has the characteristics and my dad's sister and brother in law seem to agree as well. It makes us feel better if we think he has it, because it would explain his ways and make us more certain that he wasn't like that because he didn't feel much for us. If it makes us feel better, than I am going to think it.

The same auntie and uncle said to my brother (he said) that they were worried about us as children and wondered whether they should intervene. I wish I knew what they meant! Did they see that we weren't happy then even though we hid it as much as possible and our parents didn't notice? Did they see things they thought were wrong with our parents' parenting? It also makes me a bit annoyed that why bother saying it now! If they thought something was wrong why didn't they do something? It's too late saying it now and acting like they are clever because they 'knew'! I know I shouldn't be narked because how easy would it have been for them to decide whether they should say something or not? How many people would know what to do? I guess it depends on what they thought they saw.

Ordinary, your uncle and auntie at least have the decency to own up to knowing as opposed to denying it. It is very difficult to intervene in the parenting skills of others, relatives or not. The fact that they are talking about it and by the sounds of it are on your side is supportive in itself. Can you discuss and vent your frustrations with them and let them know that as children you wished that they did intervene? Maybe just letting them know that will make it less painful for you. They may be feeling very guilty. But they may be able to give an alternative perspective on your situation as children or even corroborate events that you may not have been sure about.

Thanks Calvados, you're right, I should respect them for not denying things. I am not in contact with them but they see my brother and are supportive of him. I respect them for that as most people have rejected him and don't look past the media's view of sex offenders (which is understandable and I wouldn't have if it hadn't been my brother). I support him because he admits to everything he has done, says sorry, and is actively doing things to change himself for the better and help others.

I have thought about contacting them but it worries me that I would end up saying more than I felt comfortable with after (because my bro says they are good listeners) and my auntie is my dad's sister after all so I would worry about anything getting back to him or about her being defensive of him.

I don't think I really need their help as much as he does as I feel so much better about everything than I used to, I'm just curious about what is in their minds behind the things they've said.

I'm guessing that what my auntie and uncle witnessed is something like what I witnessed when my bro and his then partner left their toddler son to be babysat by my parents while they went out some evenings. I was about 15/16 I think. As soon as his Mum and Dad left, the baby would cry and say in a questionning and anxious voice "Mummy?, Daddy?". One of my parents would say something like "They've gone out and will be back a bit later" but more as though they were explaining this to an adult than to a small child. They didn't cuddle him or say it with any affection or any reassurance in their voice. I'm sure this wasn't because they didn't care, they just didn't know how to express themselves.

Anyway, obviously, this wasn't enough for the baby, and he continued to cry. My parents seemed to think there was nothing else they could do so one of them would watch the tv and the other would read a book as though nothing was any different to a normal childless day and just ignore him!

I didn't think til I had my own kids that surely the child should have gone to bed before his parents got back late at night instead of waiting up for them and getting really tired? Anyway, just an aside thought.

I was there, and I couldn't stand to see the baby crying and crying and nobody trying to make him feel better. I was young and had no experience of babies, didn't have a clue what to do, hadn't had good role models of what to do, but even I could see that someone should do more than what my parents were doing. I used to try to distract him by playing games, which sometimes worked, or worked for a few minutes, and tried to tell him in a more reassuring voice than my parents that his parents would be back soon (which was a lie because it was ages in a baby's eyes til 10 or 11pm). When this didn't work I picked him up (which I found scary as I didn't know what I was doing and felt my parents might disapprove, but in the end I felt I had to do it). I tried holding him in different ways to get him to stop crying, tried walking around with him and in the end found that carrying him up and down the stairs calmed him down. I kept doing it til he fell asleep. I felt so proud of myself! I did think, I can't believe I'm the one doing this, I'm only 15 and don't know what I'm doing but feel I have to do it because my parents are ignoring him when he's in distress!

Sorry this is a bit long, but my point is, that maybe my auntie and uncle witnessed our parents ignoring us when we were crying as young children or something similar and felt that maybe they should tell them they should be doing more. It's not a huge crime, not like they saw them beating us or something, so they probably wondered whether they should just leave it. But having no affection and reassurance as a child but being ignored has a bad effect even if it isn't abuse. It seems like our auntie and uncle feel it contributed to my brother's underlying reasons for his crimes as well.

Have caught up on all the posts I missed whilst away.

Things have changed again with DH. It's like the calm after the storm. I have found a book I bought a while ago but never found time to read, called "Allies in Healing - When the Person You Love was Abused as a Child" by Laura Davis and I really think and hope it will help me and DH move forward and break out of the horrible negative cycle we are in.

I just cannot seem to stop myself from projecting onto and scapegoating DH. This time I even had an awareness I had been triggered, not by DH but by various events and people that had happened over the past week, and I was in 'child mode' and I cast DH in the role of my parents and blamed him for not caring about me and not being interested in anything I said or did. But it was simply not true, not of DH anyway, the people I should have been blaming were my parents. Anyway, me blaming DH unfairly resulted in a huge row, it was awful.

But even during the row a few tiny lightbulbs started popping in my mind and the next day, yesterday, at some point, things just seemed to 'click' and i realise what we need to do. DH needs to educate himself on what living with a person who was abused as a child is like, how and why such a person reacts (or overreacts) to things, why they can't or don't know how to show affection even though they feel it inside, etc etc. I can see all these things have been going on for years now, within our relationship and has left DH feeling confused, hurt, upset, insecure and wary about me. He thinks I don't show him affection because I don't love him. He has no idea it is solely because I just don't know how. I was never shown kindess and affection as a child. I was only shown hatred, anger, hostility and I realise, that with DH, that is how I often behave. I behave with him like my father used to behave with me. Because it's all I know.

I think even walking in through our front door or DH walking in through the door is enough to trigger me. When DH comes home from work, it must subconsciously take me back to when i was a child and my dad would get home from work and the whole mood of the house would immediately change. When he wasn't there, we all felt a lot 'freer' to be ourselves and laugh and joke, but as soon as he came home, we all tensed up and felt angry and hostile with each other. And I think I am replaying the old family drama with DH.

I always feel so frustrated with myself because of my inability to show warmth and love and affection towards DH. Because I know I can be that way as I am like that with the DC's, particularly DS, and also with DD although things are always a bit more difficult with her.

Why can I now show the love I have inside for DH? Why am I so cold and wary and hostile and angry with him, it comes across in my expression and body language even if I don't say anything and even if what I do say is pleasant. He then responds to my 'unspoken' message, my body language and is wary and a bit hostile with me and then I get even more hostile with him because I think he is angry with me about something (but he is actually just reacting to me) and it just descends into a nightmare.

And as i have said, the trigger for the whole thing is DH simply walking in through the door. As a child I must have been terrified whenever my dad was around, whenever he came in from work etc. He was often in a bad mood from when he got up in the morning, and would be grumpy and hostile and angry all day and the slightest thing would make him erupt and blow up, usually at me. No wonder I immediately tense up when DH comes home, or even when he is around at home at the weekend, without him doing anything, just his presence, is triggering for me, simply because he is a man that I live with, just like my father was. I think the triggering must be so deeply ingrained and instinctive, it must have been put in place from a very young age. Even before my father had his mental breakdown and turned into a psychotic paranoid monster, I think I was scared of him even before then. Because before that time, even though he was nice to me, I remember witnessing many rows between him and my mother, including some rows where he hit her, and I must have felt scared of him even then, from around the age of 3, perhaps.

I think it is so important for our relationship that DH understands this about me. That i can get triggered in this way, and I have not yet found a way to 'snap' out of it and realise I have been triggered and make myself aware that DH is simply DH and not my father in disguise or something.

Ordinary I can relate to so much of what you are saying. Sometimes it's not what the parents did but what they DID NOT do! i.e not cuddling a crying baby especially their own grandson doesn't sit right with 'most' people including you and I. Your biological instinct and intuition told you that this baby needed reasurrance and love in order to stop feeling miserable. Your parents on the other hand did not see that it was necessary and as a result ignored him. The crying did not grate on their nerves or conscience they way it would on most people who would invariably try to stop a baby from crying. They almost definitely did that with you and your auntie probably felt guilty about theat and may be did the same as you did with your brother's baby, she may have picked you up and cuddled you. It may be worth asking her. It sounds like your parenting skills are /will(?) be much better than your own parents regardless of the roles they played which is an achievement in itself! The fact that you are questioning it all is part of the process of healing yourself as I am also doing. I am really nit picking lots of incidences during my childhood, e.g. why my DM did not want me to have an Xray after a fall and why she sulked and did not speak to me when I came home from the hospital. Ok, she did not beat me or abuse me and like you say, it's no big crime. But, I wouldn't dream of doing that to my kids and can't understand why a parent would behave like this. But since reading the NPD info, I can see that this is a trait of NPD mothers. I count myself lucky that I am not like my DM.
I think you could try to build a trusting relationship with your aunt. If they are supportive of your brother then it will eventually include you. I know you are treading carefully but that is to be expected when you come from a family set up where you do not have the confidence to speak to your parents re your childhood. I find it easier here than to tackle my DM or DS. If I spoke to my DS re my DM she would just back her up and deny things and tell me it is all in my head and that it is my fault. Glad to hear that your brother is rebuilding his life. People need love, to withold it from a child is cruel. In an ideal world............

I realise also that I have to take a lot more care of myself and not put myself into situations where I am vulnerable and have no support. I did this last week, I put myself in a situation where I was surrounded by people who were completely unaware of my background and history, completely unaware that I was vulnerable. People who had no obligation at all to 'take care' of me or take care around me, and I ended up being very hurt and feeling that I had been treated very cruelly. I had been triggered again, without realising it, and I felt like I was back at home. Everyone around me formed a little group from which I was excluded, and once again I felt unliked, unwanted, different, just like within my family. And i felt it was so unfair, why were they treating me like that, why didn't they like me when i had done nothing bad or horrible to them? But I can see now I was just being triggered, the group weren't being nasty to me deliberately, (perhaps apart from one occasion when I think it was deliberate), I thought they were because i had gone back to being a child, and the 'group' had in my mind, become my 'family' (parents and sisters).

Thank you Calvados. What you said is why I think there must be something quite wrong with my parents - that most people's natural instinct would be to pick up a crying baby not leave him to cry and cry, even if they haven't been taught to do it. I hadn't been taught to do it at age 15, certainly not by them.

Exotic, I found your post interesting as well. You say that you feel emotions but you don't know how to express emotions that were never modelled by your parents. But you are thinking about it and trying to learn how, which is really good. It is very similar to what my mum has said - that she didn't show affection because she didn't know how and nobody ever did it for her. But unlike you (and me), she didn't think about it and try to learn. I found it really hard to do, but I made myself work at learning it because I knew that is what my children needed and they are important enough to me for me to do that. I feel that we weren't important enough to my mum for her to work at getting over how hard she found it.

I believe her about why she is like she is because I know I could have been like that if I hadn't worked hard at it. And other people, like yourself, have described feeling this way too. If it makes people feel better to think that their parents might have felt more for them than they think but they just found it too hard to express it because of their own problem then I'm glad we've discussed it here. As adults you might have a chance of coming to terms with it. Children can not understand it and rationalise the feelings of rejection away and the bad feelings become ingrained.

I also found it really interesting about thinking of your DH like your dad and that causing you to feel tense around him and mistrustful of him. It reminds me of the problem I had with my DD when I thought of her like my brother and saw all oldest siblings as being evil. I am still overvigilant of the way she is with younger DS, to make sure she isn't becoming similar to how my brother was with me.

We seem to learn templates during childhood for eg what fathers are like, what men are like, what oldest siblings are like etc. The template I learned was that oldest siblings are bullies. (+ men 2 generations older are child abusers and women are weak and ineffectual). If the templates we learned are not generally true of most fathers, mothers, brothers etc are like then we need to relearn them. Poor your DH being 'tarred with the same brush' as your dad (not having a go at you because I can see why it's understandable why it has happened). Poor my DD being 'tarred with the same brush' as my brother by me. Poor all old men 'tarred by the same brush' as my grandfather.

You might be looking for signs of your DH being like your dad more than other people would, and if you look for it, you find it (or think you do) more.

You say how do you stop yourself doing this? Well I think by realising why it is happening and thinking about it and writing about it, recognising it happening more often, it will gradually change. With my DD, it didn't change like a switch but gradually over time as I kept thinking about it.

exotic, thanks for what you wrote about feeling triggered when you or DH come into the house. I've been bothered by this in all my relationships, yet - bizarrely - never made the connection. Of course part of me is still re-living the dread that accompanied the sound of my father arriving home.

I can work on that now. Cheers!

I don't post here very much these days but I do read this particular forum quite a lot.
In a nutshell my parents are not very supportive (my mum favours my brother and always has done) and my outlaws are basically dysfunctional.

Much to my surprise my FIL (who is a different sort of narc to the BIL within that house of horrors)wrote DH a letter. I did not recognise his writing at all which is not surprising seeing that he hardly ever communicates with us even verbally. This came after a recent visit to the outlaws. This letter was marked "confidential". This in our house caused a short but sharp row between me and the DH. He did not want me to read it to start with because it was marked confidential!.

It was as expected really. It contained the usual sort of mad ramblings (it was mainly typed with some underlined words. The only written parts were "dear x" and "dad") from him and a whole lot of excuses.

Now if he had written that he accepted part responsibility for all the dysfunction within their home I would have thought ooh progress. Of course that will never happen.

You all have my profound respect.