Could do with a chat on dealing with my sister?

[WishItWouldSnow]

Long story but basically my sister who is two years older than me is driving me nuts, she is in her forties now and is still making my life a misery.

some background - I married a lovely man and have children and what would seem like an idyllic life (to her I suppose), as we own our own home and each drive a car (normal stuff I guess). The reality is that yes we have some assets but absolutely no cash and struggle a bit from one month to the next but we are looking to the future when we will have less outgoings (ie kids) etc.

My sister on the other hand has never had a decent boyfriend, never married, no children AND still lives rent free with my retired parents who are subbing her life and letting her save until she can buy her own home.She could get a better job as she doesn't have DCs holding her back.She does have 'issues' with confidence and is socially very awkward but increasingly this is becoming everyone else's problem by the way she treats us.

The problem is that she has told mum that she is jealous of me and since then hardly speaks to me and if she does she can't look me in the eye, she tries to be 'super aunt' to the kids and undermines me (ie "oh I'll take you trick and treating if Mum won't").there is more to tell but I am worried about identifying her/me, however she has been in trouble with the police on and off for years and I think it is time my parents didn't have to deal with that kind of thing (they are in thier 70s).

Please can you tell me what you think? I suppose I just need some MN advice on how to deal with a sibling who just doesn't like me. I want to get on and have happy family times, without worrying about jealousy and rivalry. I mean I could be jealous of her living rent free/all bills paid couldn't I?

Sounds like a very sad situation.

Not sure what you can do. You can't make her happy by losing everything you have and being miserable, and it sounds like that's the only thing that would work!

Some people are just trapped in their own misery and become bitter, maybe that's what's happened to your sister. Perhaps she doesn't accept the responsibility for where she is in life, feels it was bad luck v your 'good luck' (not saying where you are is not down to you, but she may not see it that way)

It's all just wild speculation, since I don't know her (or you) from adam but perhaps she's caught in this role of being the Bad sister, the failing sister, the one who gets in trouble, if that makes any sense.

If she has confided her feelings to your mum and now can't make eye contact, it may be that she feels badly about her feelings, doesn't want to feel this way. That's good. That would mean there was hope. Better that than her being a cow to you and not giving a crap.

What can you do? Well, you could freeze her out of your life. Or you could try to bring out something great in her - if she has anything she's really great at, encourage her to develop that? help her to see that she can be a success herself, and then perhaps she won't begrudge you your happiness?

I would just talk to her. Tell her your mother's told you about the jealousy, tell her you're jealous of her rent-free life (even if it isn't true, it might restore the balance of power a bit from her POV) but that's just how life has worked out and you hope you can get on. It all needs to be acknowledged and out in the open or it will just fester.

Thank you both for your really thoughtful replies.

I do want to get on with her rather than freeze her out - which would be difficult as she lives with my parents which is local and DCs need to go there from time to time after school.

So.....I have been trying to get on with her for years and years and very much playing down my 'good fortune' as I know from experience how horrible it is to have that in your face when you are down on your luck.

I just feel though as if I have tried too many times now to be the humble sister who has to support her. As you say I am not going to wear sack cloth just to please her, she needs to grow up and acknowledge that I may have more material things than her but perhaps I have worked at it in terms of relationships and hard graft too. I can cope with the fact that there are lots of poeple with more powerful jobs and plenty more money than me but then I suppose I am just better adjusted?

The latest episode was when DH and I went away for 3 nights (1st time in 2 years) and Mum came to look after the DCs. I didn't realise until I came home that sister had helped out and stayed over too (albeit shouting at the DCs, moaning about cold house, slow PC, annoying dog...) and I didn't thank her within the first 24 hours! I saw her as I was driving and stopped to say "hi" to which she responded "bye!", when she got home she realised that I had left her a thank you present and also sent her a text - she has been extremely off with me since.

I know I am being sensitive and should just either ignore her childishness or deal with it head on. Leaning towards pretending nothing has happened but know that this will only prolong the problem until the next situation.....

"Some people are just trapped in their own misery"

What a good phrase. I wish I had thought of it!

I expect we can all remember friends or colleagues that this applied to and how dreadfully wearing it could be to be around them. I don't mean, of course, people who have suffered a death in the family or something similar. I mean the people who stagger from imagined crisis to imagined crisis never looking at the brighter side of any situation.

This situation started somewhere; do you think the roots of all this began in childhood?.

Were you and your sister treated "differently" by your parents as children?. Was your eldest sister somehow made out by them to be more "special" somehow and given more "priority"?.

What was your Mum's reaction to her being told by her other daughter that she is jealous of you?. What do you parents think about the situation between you two siblings?.

This is not just solely about your sister.
I think also your parents have also played their part here in keeping your sister "dependent" on them. She still lives at home and is in her forties, she seems very child like. Your parents and sister sound emotionally dependent on one another too which is itself very unhealthy (my BIL is of a similar age and lives with his parents too which has ramifications on all sorts of levels). It sounds like they have never actually let her take any responsibility for her own actions but have always bailed her out and enabled her to the nth degree. You mention too your sister has been in trouble over the years with the law - can you at all elucidate?.

Your parents do not have to deal with your sister but on the other hand they have chosen to. They have also made a choice here.

My counsel is to actually have minimal contact with your sister as these problems can be passed onto the next generation i.e your children. You cannot be responsible for her own poorly made life choices nor your parents decision to have her living at home.

thanks both! Love your MN wisdom.

Attila you are so right. Sister is middle child, my brother (eldest) did "well" and went to a college of higher ed and got a degree (we're only talking a 2:2 in Media studies but still an achievement, not astro physics) and I passed the 11+, played music, didn't do punk, goth, living in a squat, drugs, shoplifting, claiming benefits fraudulently, and most recently taking Mums car, drink driving and destroying their car.

so it seems to be more about how she has behaved and what she has done that has made me look so snowy white.

Love your analysis that my parents have made this choice. You are very right again. I do have opinions on this and have said things to Mum before but generally try to keep a lid on it so as to keep the peace. However, I do say things to DH about it and I am sure the DCs realise that her behaviour is not normal. I don't want DCs to be influenced by this behaviour although sadly it does impact!

Your sister does sound incredibly tied to your parents for a woman in her forties. You'd think that she'd value a few days peace when they came to stay at your house yet she followed along too. Or were they worried about leaving her alone, in case she trashed the house as she did the car, so encouraged her to come?

Your DCs might see her as fun at the moment but surely they will sense her loneliness and sadness as they grow and very much not want to go down her path? She actually sounds like a very helpful living example as to why sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll are no path to happiness.

Hi WishitwouldSnow,
You wrote:
"The problem is that she has told mum that she is jealous of me and since then hardly speaks to me and if she does she can't look me in the eye, she tries to be 'super aunt' to the kids and undermines me (ie "oh I'll take you trick and treating if Mum won't")."

If she isn't talking to you, well, that could be a good thing? Gives you (and family) some space-just looking on the lighter side. But the silent tissy fits are hard to bear.

On being "super aunt"...
is this how she is 'getting back at you'? Is the jealousy driving this disrespect for you and your parenting?

This isn't good because it is exposing your dc (at any age) to the idea that it is ok to ignore authority (yours and later: any authority). She doesn't sound like a great role model anyway.

Sorry I have to use the word toxic (if some think it over used), but there it is: her manipulation of your dc to work up some superiority for herself in relation to you is toxic. She is using your dc to get at you.
It is a direct challenge to you.

When you stop it or supervise contact, it will hit the fan, but imho you need to have it clear in your head that your dc come first and have no doubt, no guilt, no second guessing about putting your children before your sister. That sounds obvious, but relationship dynamics get tangled and blurred and things can get turned around unconsciously.

If you do nothing else, I suggest setting that boundary asap (that is leaving the dc out of the dynamic between you and your sister).

Stuffed Bears - yes, she is toxic I believe. I kind of want to just distance myself and DCs from her as see this is the only way forward.

My DCs do see her as a lonely character with introductions of numerous internet dating men who all last about 3 months until they see the real woman she is.

I feel I have now gone through the supportive role and advice given has not really been taken. I don't want to be all righteous with her but agree that I am fed up of her undermining me where the DCs are concerned. She makes a beeline for them as they are not as challenging as adult company, gets them all wound up and then snaps at them when she has had enough. The DCs have now had enough of her too.

I would very much like to take control of the relationship she has with me and DCs as she is really unstable and incapable of making proper judgements....

This is such a relief to talk about on here. I have tried to talk to DH but he is not a 'talker' and would prefer not to tackle this problem.

Thank you all SO much for your time and opinions!

I had similar rivalry issues with my sister WishItWouldSnow.

I am the eldest by a couple of years and live a similar life style to you whilst my sister has never had a stable relationship. She is very, very capable in the art of getting men to 'meal ticket' her lifestyle...so all her life someone else has supported her financially, usually until they are up to their eyeballs in debt which is when my sister will suddenly announce/accuse her 'meal ticket' of abusing her in someway....so far each and every allegation against these men has been later revealed to be lies. She's admitted lying about these men to myself, face to face and laughed at my naivety when I believed her accusations. She has no remorse for these lies, she has made some truly life wrecking accusations over the years. She has admitted making up these things to extricate herself from the relationships and for no other reason. So where as your sister relies on your parents for financial support mine uses other people instead.

As for the sibling rivalry it has always been there, I have always felt I was some how in a competition for which I never signed the consent forms!

She seemed to want to make me as miserable as her and has done many things over the years to try to sabotage my life. On one such occasion she even dropped her trousers whilst wearing her 'going out' thong in front of my husband in my own front room under the guise of trying on some new clothes. I must give the DH is dues I've never seen his bum leave the sofa to join me sitting in the kitchen, so quick in all my life! This is supposed to be a major sign of sibling rivalry going too far -trying to make a move on your siblings partner.

If I were you I would create my boundaries and make them good and strong, sibling rivalry is something that starts the minute we become/have siblings, when it is as ingrained as it seems to be with your sister it isn't something you alone can sort out IMO. It would take the family as a whole to be willing to attend couselling, in my case this is never going to happen, too many ghosts and skeletons.

If this is the case with your family then all you can do is take steps to make sure your immediate family are Ok...create those boundaries and stand behind them.

Zoomy - the thong story really is quite astonishing!

Your experiences are all really interesting. I am increasingly finding that most adults still suffer from some sort of sibling rivalry and somehow it seems to be magnified as adults as the boundaries our parents may have tried to set are no longer there.

I totally agree with your phrase regarding being in a competition you hadn't consented to....that sums it up completely!

As to setting boundaries - without sounding totally naiive - how do I go about that. I am a completely non confrontational type and usually avoid 'difficult' situations. Despite this I am strong natured and usually can get my point across but feel that there are so many years of crap that I have had to deal with that staying calm could be quite a challenge for me.

Hi again WishItWouldSnow.

I was rather astonished at my sisters thong incident as well, as was my DH. He created his own boundaries after that incident and would go out when she visited or find some shed/garage task that needed doing.

I may not be the best person to advise on how to install boundaries and keep contact though. I started no contact 18 months ish ago with my sister and I think I finally may have achieved my goal. I never received any Xmas cards from her this year for my DC's so I think my boundaries are established although they may be a bit severe for you.

Before this though I tried to keep things very low contact and superficial, talk about the weather, her job, her latest ripoff scheme, her DC etc etc.

I never left her in charge of my DC's alone. This was to prevent them being manipulated into pitying poor old auntie, who had such a hard life but would shower my DC's when they were small with lax rules and gifts, whilst telling them if they were her DC's everyday would be like that - a free for all and full of presents! .

I stopped opening my home and rescuing her from what I was lead to believe were terrifying relationship situations. I had her living with me many times over the years for up to twelve months at a time with her DC, during these times me and DH also helped to support her financially.

I refused to accompany her on visits to my parents so I could play the 'buffer' between them all. She is terrified of them knowing who she really is (they already know though through things people outside the family have told them).....she plays the 'Goldenchild' within our family and no-one can be bothered with the drama/fallout to challenge her...she put me in the role of the 'Scapegoat' along time ago. (There are reasons for this to do with my sister's toddlerhood, Grandparents created these roles not my parents, I can't say much more just in case I reveal too much and end up being stalked again!)

Basically I suppose I just stopped covering up for her and made her face the consequences of her own actions within her life. I have never told anyone involved in the family dynamics her 'secrets', they aren't my 'secrets' to tell, so whatever her consequences are - she will not have me to blame them on.

When she used to visit I started to realise my DC's would leave the room and go and play elsewhere. When she left they would appear half way down the stairs asking if she'd gone and could they come down? This is when I realised my gut instinct was right and I needed to stop all this, she made my children feel unworthy in their own home, all because they didn't worship her as they did when they were toddlers. So I limited her visits to times when my DC's were at school. Then she pushed my boundaries regarding when she could visit...big hoohaa and no contact ensued.

For me setting boundaries involved putting my needs and my immediate families needs before hers. She was welcome to visit but only when it suited me, she just couldn't/wouldn't accept me taking charge. I was never rude, I never told her she could only visit when the DC's were at school. I told her it was more convenient if they were at school as I could then give her my undivided attention! When it came to visiting my parents somehow I was just always busy when she wanted to visit. I always asked her what days and times she wanted to go first, before volunteering any of my plans. As for leaving her alone with my DC's (or not as the case maybe) I used to tell her they were so naughty and high spirited that really it would be so much better if there were two adults to look after them! Gosh I was crafty!

Behaving like this did keep the peace for while but it was almost like she had to push my boundaries until I snapped...I suppose that way she has another pity me story to tell anyone that will listen.

Oh well at least I won't be emotionally vampired this time listening to her woes for hours/days/weeks on end!

I do wish you loads of luck with this, whatever you do will not be easy, but perhaps if you play to her ego as I did with my sister you may achieve some sort of non antagonistic relationship.

Thank you for your post. I read it last night and went away to think about it before posting.

I do feel so much better and really almost empowered rather than hopelessly letting it get me down. I realise of course that the reality is going to be much harder. But I will set boundaries and DH is behind me after I told him what you have all talked about. We have been trying not to acknowledge her poor behaviour up until now but after our holiday I realised that she really is abusing me for no reason other than her own twisted sense of what she wants and calls a family relationship.

Her behaviour with my DCs fits in so well with your description. She is getting them on to her team without a doubt, but without even having tried to set boundaries the DCs are slowly realising that they don't want to play her game.

I do feel sorry for her (sometimes), she hasn't got a special relationship, no DCs, dependant on parents, no career. But I will be drawing a line under all of this now. As you say I will not be her scapegoat. It is so obvious that she is stuck in the 'bad sister' role and would love to reverse her fortune but I don't need to be involved in this. I won't react to her behaviour from now and won't raise it with mother unless she wants to talk to me about her issues with her. I too hold secrets about sister that I will not share and like you Zoom I can't then have any reason to worry for future backlashes.

We have got DDs birthday next weekend which she will probably come over for. DH and I have agreed that she is not to be left with the DCs or go off into another room with them. DH will follow or I will mention to DCs that they should stay with me. DH will watch and step in should she start telling DCs off for anything. He thinks he can manage it in a diplomatic way that shouldn't cause a scene ie "DS, you are fine, don't worry about doing so and so" and as you say keep the conversation minimal and everyday with her. She doesn't really talk to me much anyway as she is terrified I am going to say something either clever (that she doesn't understand) or show off (in her view) about something. this means mentioning something along the lines of talking about our home maintenance or the fact that I have children.

So.....no more!

Hi wishitwouldsnow,

re your comment:-

"I do feel sorry for her (sometimes), she hasn't got a special relationship, no DCs, dependant on parents, no career"

Of course you feel sorry for her - but she did made a conscious choice here as did your parents to continue to parent her/keep her dependent on them even though she is now in her 40s. Your parents have also played a role here re your sister as well.

"It is so obvious that she is stuck in the 'bad sister' role and would love to reverse her fortune but I don't need to be involved in this".

That is your perception but methinks she does not see it like that at all. That is for her to address with her parents though, this is not your responsibility and or problem to take on.

"I won't react to her behaviour from now and won't raise it with mother unless she wants to talk to me about her issues with her".

I would certainly agree with the above. Infact I would limit all contact with this particular individual (she brings nothing positive to your life as a family unit) and not invite her over to your dd's birthday party.

Be strong in your resolve, you will still continue to have a hard time with your sister because she will notice that the "rules" on your side have now changed.

Boundaries are key here, you must set them and maintain them. Your DH and you must put on a united front with regards to your sister. I would also on a wider level apply that to your parents as well.

It seems you have a workable plan there WishItWouldSnow and all the better with your DH's backing.

Yes, your sister does seem to be stuck in the 'bad sister' role, but she will see it in the reverse. She will see herself as the 'good sister' and put you in the 'bad sister' role when it comes to your parents.

Sibling rivalry is based on being 'top dog' in your parents eyes, so be careful. Any and I do mean any negative comments you may make regarding your parents will be transferred back to them with a nasty spin attached. A simple moan about your Mum phoning when you are up to your eyeballs in housework will be turned into something completely different and used to put a wedge between yourself and your parents.

Tell your sister nothing that maybe used against you. Keep your life private concerning any angst you maybe going through, it will save you a lot of heartache later.

Please don't feel sorry for your sister, you made your choices and she made hers. She chose the life she has, she also has the power to change it if she wanted but she is choosing to remain the way she is. After all she is 40 years old, no longer a teen but an adult who has the capacity to direct her own life as she wants. (My sister is early 40's too.)

@ the say something clever about you DC's or home maintenance, my sister is like this too, unless my conversation is celebrity or fashion based then I get the vacant 'I'm bored face' and she starts handbag rummaging.....problem is I know nothing about celeb's or fashion! So unless we talk about my sisters life the conversation is a wee but strained.

Start with the small boundaries and as your confidence grows I think you will be amazed at your ability to cope, you seem more than capable to me. x

Atilla and Zoomy - thanks again! i really wish I had your clarity of vision in regard to what is going on. Don't know if it is because I am too close or just don't get the depth of nonsense that is going on here. I am very much a 'get on with it' type of person who doesn't really bear grudges, I either hit it off with you or just accept that maybe we were never going to click so wouldn't worry if we lost touch. No dramas.

about fashion and celeb chat! My sister doesn't even communicate that well. I say breezily "hi, how are you?" she says "really good actually" (mock confidently) then NEVER enquires about my health (cue inward smile). Then it is her mission to hunt down the DCs and run about the house being fun, superaunt. She even brought a new boyfriend over to our house once and left the poor man strugling talking to us in kitchen whilst she jumped on sofa with DCs. Really quite bizarre! He didn't last much longer after that.

Atilla you are so right that she doesn't bring anything positive to my life - quite the opposite. Just one thing, when you say involve my parents in setting the boundaries, do you mean I should tell them not to let sister be alone with them. I could say this to my mum, so when the DCs go there they are not to go upstairs out of sight with her?

For my own peace of mind though I would like to have some sort of relationship with her just because...well i don't know why. I don't like conflict, there is plenty of that in DHs family (not our direct problem). There will be family occasions and situations which call for some connection with her so will have to find a way of maintaining a manageable relationship.

I think you are right though, there will be some fallout when she understands that things are not quite going her way. I do however feel alot stronger for your advice and will follow this through as best I can.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your words of advice....it's really so nice to finally understand all that has been going on and have the tools now to go forward.

Big thanks to you x

Boundaries are key here, you must set them and maintain them. Your DH and you must put on a united front with regards to your sister. I would also on a wider level apply that to your parents as well.

What I mean by this is that you both put on a united front to your parents as well re your sister.

Blood is not always thicker than water and maintaining relationships for societal convention is not always necessary or desireable. If you still want a relationship with your sister the relationship will have to be redefined so you have some control back. At present your sister is calling the shots here and has likely always done so. She probably does the same with her parents as well but that is their issue to face and not yours to carry or take ownership of.

Good luck to you, your sister will no doubt continue to make things difficult for you as a family.

WishItWouldSnow

• be aware that there are people posting on here that have cut off contact with family members. Not to criticise their actions, I cannot know whether that is the right thing to do or not in their situations. But, I just want to say, think carefully. You ahve a sense that you want to have a realtionship with your sister but can't say why - I think that feeling is important. I too think family relationships are important, I can't say why either. But I have lost contact with a sister, and although she has made me sad, angry, distraught...you name it, over the years - I still feel the loss of the relationship. I suppose I mean, think about it first. You sound happy, you have a lot going for you. She doesn't by the sounds of it. How much effort does it take to just keep on as you are? Really.

I'm with moominotter here.

I've just been reading some of the threads in MN Mental Health and, from there, some of the Mind pages. An overriding theme, of course, is that mental illness often causes behaviour that others find difficult or repugnant.

It should be more obvious, to all of us, that no-one chooses to live an unsatisfactory life - the person with 'troubles' is clearly very unhappy but can't find their way out of it.

I don't know whether there is anything you can do to help your sister - there might be nothing specifically. But surely 'being there' for her, and showing as much gentleness as you can, is kinder to everybody concerned than creating a painful rift in the family?

Otter and Grace

Good to have your opinions and you both make alot of sense.

It is true that I do want to have some sort of relationship with my sister and I will need to have a think about how this is going to work.

She is certainly the one with the issues and I have tried so hard to support and counsel her (at her request) in the past. I just came to a point where I am fed up of being treated so poorly by someone who I have always helped and supported. We need to live independantly and I suppose I am feeling that as she has come back to my parents in the last three years she is holding them back and that certainly does upset me. Suppose that is part of the rivalry thing too?

My parents are retired with a small income but seem to be subbing her lifestyle (she has a higher standard of living than most). I will have to accept this as parents and sister's decision I now know. I need to find my way of dealing with it.

Maybe it is best just to be polite but less involved? I feel so much lighter for even having started this discussion so realise that less involvement is best for me. I do however worry about any fallout from being too aggressive with her.

So difficult.

I am organising some childcare so I can limit the time DCs spend with my folks and her and so keep contact to a more social occasion and less to when I 'need' them. I am beginning to realise that my parents are also part of the problem. I want to take more control and so perhaps a period of coolness would be what we need...?

Just to say that I really feel for you. I too am having such hard sister times, different issues to you, but still sister stuff, and I find it so heartbreaking.

I wish I could just let it be, accept that for whatever reason she doesnt really want me in her life, and that when we are more involved together, it is always me that ends up hurt. Why cant we be close, why cant we support each other, why does she have such little time for, no patience when things are difficult, basically she clearly dislikes me and it breaks my heart.

Sorry, I have launched into my story! I feel for you and wish you well... I like the idea of focussing on gentleness and kindness and no formal rift, but also think setting clear boundaries and finding other childcare are ways of protecting your family and your peace of mind.

x

Mamatilly - please write more if it would help you. I found it very therapeutic to get it all out here as DH doesn't know what to say about it all. I have found others insight really useful and has given me other angles to approach this problem.One thing though, you sister sounds similar to mine in so much as we will tick along for a couple of years with me treading on eggshells so as not to say anything 'wrong' and then it all blows up because I have said something, I will then keep my distance until she decides we can be friends again. Feels very much like she has to control things, I am not bothered though, have my own busy, happy life which does not involve her.

I agree too with the gentle approach but also strongly feel the need to protect my children from her sour approach to life and other people.

I too feel disliked. Not nice.