Is this normal teenage brother/sister behaviour?

[mamas12]

please, if anyone has experience of this and what to do. It's just dawned on me that my ds is showing EA traits like his father towards his sister.
She cried tonight and calmly told him (have been coaching her to stick up for herself calmly, more effective) she had had enough of him constantly putting her down and making her feel like an ugly useless stupid girl and everything she says is laughed at. Fed up of being treated like shit.
Please tell me if I am over reacting and this could be 'normal' teenage boy brother/sister thing.
Or am I reading too much into it because of my history with their EA father who I divorced because of preciseley this treatment of me.
Don't know what to do.

Bickering's normal to some extent but an aggressor/victim scenario isn't desirable!

What help have you given your son and daughter in terms of supporting them out of repeating unacceptable learned behaviour?

You only mention the tools you have provided your daughter as potential victim but either of them could become victim and either of them aggressor...

I don't know if you're over-reacting but children do learn behaviours from those around them, of course they do.

No you are not over reacting.
Imho, and I am sorry this sounds preachy but I do feel rather strongly about this.

You need to come down hard on him NOW and in a way that he will not mistake the message.
This what I would say -and have said to my son...although I said it to him when he was 5 and his sister was 4 (they are now 16 and 15):
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This behavior to his sister has to stop now! Absolutely prohibit abusive behavior under your roof.

She is a member of this family and has every right to live here in peace without anyone harrassing, bullying, teasing, or any other form of abuseing her over anything. The home is her sanctuary just as it is for him and you.

If he is feeling frustrated or bored or angry he will dispense with those feelings in a way that does not involve his sister in any way, shape, or form.

If he persists, and he will not take direction from you on this reformation of his social behavior, then you will seriously find someone who will: military school.

You really need to stick up for your daughter. It is very very important that you do.

It is also doing your ds a huge favor in informing, teaching, making him understand that treating girls like objects (just like dad) is terrible and horrible. This isn't degrading his father, it is discussing the reality that his fater's behavior towards women/girls, and thought processes that governed the behavior, are very hurtful therefore very wrong. Thus your divorce-have you explained the divorce to them yet? Maybe you should.

If he wants to go live with his dad, I would seriously consider it to spare your daughter. But as you have already guessed, he probably would develope into an emotional abuser as well-it does sound like he is on his way. I know you don't want to give up your son, but if he is EA then you come to a point of just not having those kinds of people in your life- even if they are your family.

Read Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?" and have your daughter read it so she won't think her dad's/brother's behavior is "normal" from guys thus get herself into relationships with abusers.

you need to tell him to stop.

yes there is bickering - but that means there is some kind of equality.

ds & dd (16 yo twins) bicker but dd will tell ds to shut his gob if he gets mouthy. they are equally gobshytey when they need to be.

what you are saying is that there is inequality - someone feels subjugated in this situation and you need to stop it.

I don't think you need to consider him leaving home, just yet.

You could change him, I think - he's at the beginning and thus it isn't too ingrained.

How old was he when you left his dad? how much time did he have to learn this treatment of women?

I would consider getting him some sort of counselling to discuss why he feels the way he feels (because however horrid, his feelings are genuine too) and discuss strategies for him to dispense those feelings without degrading anyone.

Toomany, really? Military school? Some of the most dysfunctional and mysogonistic people I know attended military school and/ were in the forces.

This child is a victim of domestic abuse, not anyones enemy! Treating him as such will give him no room, opportunity or reason to change his behaviour for the positive.

As for encouraging the OP to kick him out 'to spare her daughter' ...I'm truly astounded by the suggestion. He needs help and support too, not encouragement towards detrimental behaviours. Do you really think sending him to live with the perpetrator of EA will help him in anyway?

Just to add - the Respect charity are now working with teenagers to help them understand why they act as they do...

I think that may be a good port of call if you want to help your son in a very positive way

Respect

thank you for your considered replies (stuffed bears !)
I was looking for help with how to help him to recognise and stop his behaviour, not abandon him to his father. A bit of an extreme reaction I may say, but I understand your sentiments.
I am actively hoping that I could get some suggestions on how to help me educate him.
He's not thick and when explained he does know he is in the wrong but gets defensive, which is exasperating but I hope normal teenage thing.
It's so hard to try and distinguish the two isn't it?

Thank you for the link to Respect lewis I will sit and study that now.

I certianly don't want to raise a copy of his dad.
I haven't really talked about why we parted and he was 9 when we divorced if that helps anyone with any tips.

She also complains like this after coming back from their dads so I think he is facilitated at his house where I don't tolerate it so it must be hard for her and confusing for him

I am sorry that I shocked anyone.

I am a survivor of EA and am in the middle of reading up some more on it so I am in a bit of a state about it.

The thing is, some teens simply refuse to cooperate (for lack of a better encompassing term) and at a certain age-you can't make them-(I mean the way you can when they are toddlers), so what then?

I am just not into self-sacrifice anymore and really don't want daughters to be sacrificed either.

I feel a zero tolerance approach to emotional abuse is the way to stop it. Identify offensive interactions in the moment, explain why they are inappropriate and give alternative communication possibilities.

I am doing a zero tolerance thing with him but it seems every single thing he does is wrong and I feel as though I am picking on him and pulling him up all the time.
On the one hand I don't want him turning out like his dad but on the other I need to praise him for something.

Has anyone gone through this, I can't be the only one with an EA ex and then ds exhibiting those tnedencies can I?

Nope, you're not the only one. I'll be watching this thread with interest.....

Mamas12, I am in a very very similar situation but have little time right now,

I haven't read the thread in full but in a way, your DS is as much a 'victim' here as your DD and needs loving guidance to redress the balance.

That doesn't mean NOT having firm boundaries by any means (i.e how he treats his sister). You need to establish basic rules but maybe change the way they are applied.

So if he upsets her, I say something to my DS like, 'Please be kinder to DD, I know you are capable of more/better and you have such a lovely side to you...'

If he does something you don't like, try and make him feel like he is helping you by doing what you want. 'It is such a help to Mum when you put your shoes away properly and I do appreciate it'

It takes a while and if it is 'learned' behaviour, then it needs to be 'unlearned' and replaced by something that makes him feel better about himself, and therefore about being kinder to her. I don't know if you do, but don't say negative things about him when he is around, or about 'Men', that really hurts because he may think..'well I will grow up to be a man and this will be my role.'

Garbled and rushed, but something I feel passionately about.... My lovely DS is coming back to me bit by bit and all the hard work is worth it.

Thank kissing yes that's exactly what I think, he has learnt this behaviour and now I must teach him it's unacceptable in a way that he will take on board quickly and not under protest.
You give me hope though it will be a longer haul than I hoped.
Will plod on. I have to, he is lovely just his stupid father coming out in him.
I never put his father down in front of him or say those things about men. I try to be too fair I suppose but you're right I will concentrate on the behaviour and not the boy.

how old is he? WRT the not having much to praise, can you go really literal - does he get up without fuss / on time? do his homework? chores? which may lead to "ya know, son - not many lads your age do X so well! well done for being so mature!" or something?

Thanks Lewis I suppose going back to toddler type praising is in order to try to make up for all the other stuff.

Does anyone else have any experience of going through this and changing their boy?