Need help: serious problems in my relationship...

[isitamistake]

Am a regular but have name changed for this. Really sorry as I don't particularly like name-changing, but felt I had to for this.

OK sorry if this is long! Sorry for the 'list' way I've written...:

-Have been with DP 7 years as a couple & many years before that as a friend. I always felt he was my closest person & have never loved anyone as much as I've had him
-We've had problems (intense arguments / sometimes involving screaming etc) from the start of the relationship.
-Now we have a toddler. DP is a wonderful dad & loves DS to bits & spends loads of time with him.
-DP tends to go through depressions, has always done so.
-DP never wanted children & is also very very financially wary & tight (even though we're financially comfortable). He doesn't work though & is very reluctant / scared / don't know what about it all. He's in the middle of a career change (doing a training) but I think he's taking far more time than we expected to & it doesn't seem to me that he'll be working any time soon. So most of the financial burden falls on me (which up to a point is fine).
-Our main problems atm are: the fact that he's SO anxious about money. The fact that, bizarrely, he's not willing to work. The fact that our fights (which tend to get circular & ugly) seem to be getting worse. Or at least they haven't changed. And the main thing: he just dropped the bombshell that he doesn't want a second child, it's too much of a 'burden' (in his mind), DS has really taken over his life / mind, he says he can't concentrate on his work / training (even though I do by far the biggest portion of childcare plus we have regular help). He also talks of financial reasons. I on the other hand, maybe because our relationship is more generally on the rocks, can't give up on the possibility of a second child. I feel if I did that I would simply hate him for it.
-Time is not on our side. I'm 37, he's late 40s. We'll need fertility treatment to have our second baby (that's how we had our first). He seems to change his mind every second minute about it. Only yesterday he told me three things. First, that he's not having a second child, not ever, he doesn't want it. Second, at some other point, he told me OK lets have a second child but you (me) take over responsibility / financial issues etc (which up to a point I'm already doing & would be happy to provided he started to work even for a small salary). Third thing he said, that we should put it off for a few years, but which time though I'll be over 39 & with fertility treatment involved chances will be slim.

Anyway, that's the story. Any thoughts? I'm really sad & desperate, we fight & fight & fight. We used to love each other as much as 2 people can love each other, and I guess we still do, but life has kind of gotten in the way & we can't seem to make the relationship work. I suspect he stays with me because of DS (not only, but as a major factor). He adores him & can't even imagine living apart from him (cries & goes into a panic just at the thought).

Attila, did you read my previous message? I wrote very clearly that we love each other very much. He's my closest person, we communicate very well- despite the very difficult bits in our relationship.

I want to say something. When someone writes here & says 'I want to break up, help me to do so' or even 'I'm thinking of breaking up: should I do it or not?' then fair enough if people write about that. When someone though (like I did) says they want ideas / help / thoughts about serious problems in their relationship it's a different story. I never asked for anyone to tell me 'yes you're fine really, there there'. Where did you get the idea btw Attila that I believe DP & I are 'fine'?! I've written all these things exactly because I think we have problems. I also though don't want to leave him because I love him & I know he loves me. When I say 'I love him' that contains all sorts of things which I can't describe here in detail nor should I have to. Suffice to say that when I met him, and throughout the years, my relationship with him despite the problems has helped me grow in all sorts of ways & go in directions which I didn't believe possible before. It has not, by any means, been wholly a problematic relationship. Attila, when you write 'you two are not good for each other & never will be', how do you think that's helping? First of all, how on earth do you know that? Second, can't you see that the only thing that sort of comment will make me feel is defensive & protective of my DP who as I said I love & who I want to be with? What I would like is some change, some hope, some thought on how to work towards a better life. Some hope on how to build on the good things & slowly, gradually, change the bad.

It should be enough if someone says they want to work on their relationship (rather than leave immediately) for others to respect that & see if they can help with that... Not by saying 'it's all great, no problem' but by giving thoughts on what I have presented as the problems (and the pluses of the relationship) & not on a preconceived 'he's-a-monster-leave-him-immediately' model. That's not necessarily the answer to all relationships. Or it may be the answer for me in the future (who knows) but certainly it isn't at this point in time.

As for the therapy we're doing, it hasn't been for a long time & it has been helping in a way, in that our fights have decreased a lot. This week we did though have a bad fight which was what prompted me to write here. Because it was a bad fight it made me remember our fights in the past & it gave me the feeling that 'nothing has changed'. But if I'm honest, we have been fighting less since we started the therapy (about 6 months ago).

All in all, this thread has made me very sad. I think, as I said, it's given me some ideas but it has also felt difficult to read some of the things everyone's written at times, especially phrases such as 'self obsessed whiner' about someone so close to me.

Yes I did read your previous message and it made me feel very sad. I never suggested that you were actually fine at all, what I meant was it seems you wanted people to now write along the lines of "there there, just hang on in there". That seems to me what you want to solely read now. Love is sometimes just not enough.

You cannot make a person change and you are not responsible for that other person's behaviour. How much more therapy are you prepared to have on this relationship?. Working on relationships is fine and they all need tending to but there are fundamental and deeply rooted problems here that probably will not be overcome because he really does not want to overcome them. Relationships should not be such hard work, honestly.

You now write that it has not by any means been a wholly problematic relationship yet your originally made comment, "We've had problems (intense arguments / sometimes involving screaming etc) from the start of the relationship" would indicate otherwise.
Am not picking holes but there is a contradiction here.

Your child is the person I truly feel the most sorry for in his parents ongoing relationship problems.

And again I pose this question - what are you both teaching your child about relationships here?.

If nothing else the whole thread has made you think and I am glad of that. Thank the stars too you are not planning on a second child by him (a very sensible decision given your current circumstances).

Thanks Attila for your thoughts. I do appreciate it even when/if I don't agree with everything.

Yes we've had arguments (sometimes intense ones) from the start. And we've also had lots of good things throughout. Periods of calmness & periods of difficulty. For me the fights have always been a problem & he does see this too & that's why last april we started therapy together. I think some of the problems in the relationship became more clear to me (and more painful for me to accept) once we had our DS because (as you say) I want the best for him & don't want a bad atmosphere for him. I have to stress we have very rarely had arguments in front of DS- sometimes though I can tell that if there's a bad atmosphere DS senses it! And it breaks my heart & makes me feel guilty.

As for what lessons we're teaching our child...this is a very big question. I find it hard to answer. I certainly have told DP that in the long run, if the intense fights continue, it'll be a dealbreaker for me as I can't see myself accepting them. Hence the therapy (that's why we went). This is the lesson that I don't want to teach my son (the fighting) & tbh I expected (deluding myself, I suppose) that once he was born the fighting would decrease. Well I suppose it has decreased. Our last bad fight was july & this one was november, so it's not by any means all the time. However, it's just that nowadays, being a mother, even a fight once in a while (plus all the other issues) just feels 'heavier' somehow ifswIme.

Still. As I said there are good things too. Maybe not obvious when I'm writing with anger / pain / sadness. But there are. And they mean I'm not ready to end this, or even sure I should. Maybe I'll feel differently in the future but I don't know.

i havent read all the posts, only the first one.
i think you better delay the second child till he establishes his career.
him not working at the moment is the reason of stres and arguments i guess.
a couple of years waiting wouldnt be late for having a second child.
for the moment try to concentrate on what you have and him getting his job and try to be positive.
good luck.

This reminds me a bit of when I first posted on here. I was quite taken aback by the bluntness of some of the posts. And not because they were rude or controversial, but because they were direct and to the point. It was either SGB or dittany who said something like he's a tosser, leave him. I was shocked, but also slightly thrilled that someone had dared be so outspoken about my ex's behaviour. It also made me realise how very long it had been since I'd said what I really felt and without worrying about how he would react. I don't think he even knows what Mumsnet is, but I was still thrillingly scandalised that someone had said it.

One thing you are not doing is putting yourself first and tbh I can't get a mental picture of what sort of person you might be like. Do you still know who you are - what angers you, what excites you?

You're standing your ground with ATM but in a very polite, considerate way. Are you like this in RL? If we sound like we've made our minds up about your DP, it's because most of us have come out the other side and we know all the stories and reasons.

But remember, we are trying to help you. But it's you we want to help, not him.

No matter what, maybe it helps to clarify matters if they are thrashed out like this? In circumstances such as these, the most important thing is to feel empowered to do what's best or you, to make a conscious decision about your relationship, maybe taking the insights of others into account. To own the present and maybe even the future, or to be pointed in the direction where this is possible. Clarifying what you're getting out of it, what you feel, whether you wake in the morning with a feeling of contentment or dread can be a very good thing. The best thing a post can do is offer a reality check.

Mathanxiety: Certainly it helps to clarify things by talking them through. Although some of the comments on this thread e.g. 'how would I feel if he died' have shocked me & in a way have helped me clarify in an opposite direction from the one intended by the posters...

Queenofdenial: you say you can't get a mental picture of me. Well I think it's hard to get a mental picture of people on MN except when they post for a long time (which I have in my usual MN name). I've only posted this once as 'isitamistake' & I don't find it surprising that you don't get a mental picture of me. As for what angers & excites me...I suppose what really angers me is that I've spent lots of energy hoping to 'help' DP, hoping that things would change etc. I think putting myself first (and DS) would mean either accepting the relationship as it stands, enjoying the good bits & trying to work on the bad bits, or on the other hand thinking about what it would mean to leave. It certainly angers me that I've let myself get in a situation where I've tried to change someone else. I think DP is a big part of the whole thing, he did push me into this as its a pattern for him, but I'm certainly to blame too

Strangely enough, since I posted here, DP & I have had a few productive conversations which made me feel a bit hopeful about things. Not terribly hopeful, just a bit.

My thoughts....why would you want to bring another child into a relationship with deep seated problems? You talk about your needs and your H's needs but what about the needs of a new person you want to create?

On his "bad" behaviour...you say he shows it to his Mum and you. Sounds like he has been brought up in a home where one can demonstrate the worse of oneself to those who are closest. At some point this tips from healthy (being able to express oneself) into unhealthy (laying their crap on someone in a selfish way that is damaging to the other person). I think you should think very carefully about the comments people have made that once your DS grows older and begins to assert himself and rebel, this behaviour might be incredibly difficult for H to tolerate and he will begin to think it is OK to behave his worst with his son too.

There's a fine line too between being a caring person who wants to help others and being someone who wants to control others to get one's needs met.