Anyone else with a NPD ex?

[redpyjamas]

I have been single for nearly 7 years, having escaped from my controlling, dangerous, violent ex.

I am sure from reading online info (and mumsnet) that he is NPD.

We have 2 children (7 and 8).

For the first 3 years after I left, he made no attempt to contact the children, or establish any relationship with them (to my relief). Although he would blame me for his lack of contact, even thought he was not requesting it. Really, the whole thing is so mad, I would feel like I'm going insane because I would keep trying to work him out, and it is not possible.

Since then, he has actually seen them 4 times in a contact centre. I have always insisted that contact take place in a centre because I strongly consider him to be a threat to the children if he ever developed a relationship far enough to feel in control of them. Also, there is risk of abduction and he is from (and lives) abroad.

Obviously, his need to control means that he is unhappy with the contact centre. He took me to court in April, and we cameto an 'agreement' (miles more in my favour than his).

Since the, though, he has really maximised the fact that he feels able to contact me again. He used to have to make all visitation arrangements through a solicitor. Since the court agreement, he has my mobile number because he is supposed to call the children every month. (He is also supposed to email tehm but has not bothered with this, and has also not seen them since June last year - his own choice, though he blames me).

He has been using my mobile and my email address to begin to harass me ever increasingly. At first he was all soppy and lovey - trying to convince me he still loves me (maybe thinking he was tempting me to something, or get me to agree to waiver the agreement). Now he has become quite angry, manipulative and threatening. By the way, he has re-married and has another child.

He does everything he can to try to twist the agreement. So, if I ask him to call between 2 and 3, he calls 45 mins early, or late, or anything other than the agreement. I never resoind to the bait, but it is unrelenting.

There is so much more to the story, but I have already written an essay.

What I really want to know from anyone who understands is: how to manage explaining to the childrn about their father. I cn't just leacve it because they ask questions, and also when on the phone he makes promises to them that he cannot keep (about taking them to the zoo/theatre etc)

I am struggling to strike a wise balance between telling them the truth (because I am always aware that he may try to make off with them, and I want them to know that this is not safe, because I want them to understand that the reason he is not living with us is because we had to escape). But I don't want to just slag him off, or poison them against him. It is so hard to pitch it right.

My 8 year old has actualy picked up some of his attributes just from her intyuition, and the fact that he hardly ever sees them but seems to buy them expensive stuff a lot.

I don't know - is there a good book on the matter? How to explain to children at different stages of their development and undersanding about having an abusive absent father?

Here's hoping someone who knows has made it to the end of this message.

Can you not get a new mobile, and keep the current one for him only. Say that he can call you between 2-3 on such and such a date, and only switch it on between those times. You could take off the voicemail function too.

and get yourself a new email address too.

Take the control back and keep it.

As for what to tell your DC, i have no idea sadly, i really hope you get some good advice, there must be a good book..

All the best, hope it all works out in the end.

Much sympathy !
Mine is still in our lives unfortunately, as he sees my DD's as his belongings to control and manipulate me
I worry so much about DD1 , I have started to try and be more honest with her, and say that he isnt allowed to call me mean names, but she jumps to his defense (he has told her that I make him be mean and I am more mean to him)!

I really have no advice, but I truly understand how hard it is, you think when you get away you will be free, but you arent

DD1 and I are doing the NSPCC mother and childrens course, it is helping I think! She is 8 as well

I sympathise with you redpajamas. I am a few weeks free from a hellish mappiage to an N. My dc have access visits with their Dad. My eldest ds, 11, asked his Dad why he had broken and smashed things while living at home. His Dad replied by giving some inappropriate information about me, telling ds that I had had a boyfriend while he was at work and had wanted to kill myself after ds was born. My son was extremely angry with his Dad and refused to talk to him. I had to talk to my son about my relationship with his Dad, explain what emotional abuse was and why I had to seek protection from the courts. It was so hard for me - it meant talking about confusing adult relationships with a child who has never had to deal with such complex issues in his short little life. Luckily he understood me.
I didn't mention the topic of personality disorders at all - I almost have, a couple of times, but where do you start? I am also conscious of the fact that his Dad believes he has done nothing wrong and if my son repeats what I have said to him then it will unleash further fury on me, and I don't think I could take it right now.

My only hope is that my ds (and soon the 6 and 4 yo) will experience the unreasonable behaviour of their Dad for themselves. My 11yo has already been privy to this and thankfully, has seen through his Dad's behaviour and reacted angrily. I will continue to bring my dc up in a normal loving home where they understand what appropriate behaviour is. When they raise questions about their Dad's behaviour I will answer, no matter how difficult it is, whilst continuing to encourage their relationship with their Dad. In time, as they get older, it will be their choice as to whether they want a relationship with him or not, buy at least it will be their choice that they accept, and will not feel they were deprived of their father because of me.

In the meantime I stay ever alert. I ask them how they got on with their Dad and because I have an open relationship with my dc I trust them to talk to me about their fears. There may come a day when they want to know why their Dad behaves as he does; at that point I may tell them about NPD. I'm not looking forward to it, but I will be honest with them. The cyle of sweeping things under the carpet will end with me. I don't want my dc ending up in a relationship like I did, suffering in silence for years and living half a life.

Have a look at these forums thepsychopath.freeforums.org/.

There are many people on there struggling with what to say to their children.

As difficult as it is you just have to treat them with consistency and love. I see no reason why you should not tell them about their father. Using age appropriate language of course.

I have told my older one about NPD (18). The younger one... i just point out the unacceptable behaviour, and have not actually said the N word. I am leaving that for a later time.

Sadly both my children see their father speaking to me like s**t, and him and HIS father bullying me, along with the rest of the freaks in his family, and they think it is normal. That is very saddening to me.

I don't know what to do about that, but what can I do?? It's not me that should modify my behaviour. My ex-H is an N along with his family....that is the truth of the matter. I have to try to model normal behaviour in all situations....and that really is all you can do.

My children have the genes from my family and my ILs...all of whom are Ns or other PDs. If they turn out normal it will be a miracle.

xxxxx

No advice as such other than to say: just keep on giving your DCs the consistency of the security they have with you which they don't have with him.
Take comfort that the likelihood of contact having to increase (while he can't even maintain what he's asked to do) is very low!

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I will read them properly later on this evening.

Shame there seems to be no book on the subject.

Maybe there is a gap in the market. A sort of anecdotal book that various survivors contribute to with their thoughts and experiences.

There are enough of us here who do understand (drop by the NPD thread!) and recognise the man you are describing.

I don't know the answer, partly because my PD ex is very subtle. Try your local WAs, they have given me details of a local child counselling service for children who have these parents. I was also recommended this which WA run for children and young people.

It's complex, but I agree that strong, supportive parenting from you is the best antidote. Also, practical solutions like changing e-mail and mobile number, also take the e-mails and texts if there are any and go back to your solicitor. It is a form of harrassment.

Just wanted to bump this thread, and to say thank you to those who have responded to me.

Groundhogs - I really try to keep it under control. He only has an email address that I use pretty much only for his messages, so I'm not faced with his sht everytime I check emails.

If he calls early or late, I simply don't answer.

I recently told him to stop texting me. That he can orfanise his call by email only. Then on Sunday, he purposefully called early and then sent a text t tell me I was unreasonable not to pick up. It was all just an excuse to text. For no reason other than that I had asked him not to.

I am dreading the whole thing going to court (which feels inevitable at some point). I so desperately don't want him to have any real influence on the children. They are so happy and secure, and all the adults they know are normal and caring. They have no real idea about what it is really like to be suffering under an N. I dont want teh to find out when they are still impressionable, or unable to defend themselves.

do any of you feel constantly worried about how your actions might be interpreted by a judge? I just know thatthe normal rules or interaction do not apply to Ns. I have to be very very strict, which may appear unduly harsh to anyone not taking the circumstances into account.

Is it possible to have an ex 'diagnosed' with NPD for the benefit of a court case?

Maybe is there anyone who can remember their own father being NPD. Did you get protected by your mother? What were the longterm effects?

Sorry about the essay again.

I just really feel the need to discuss this with someone who knows what it is like.

I really hope I get a reply.

I am historically a very good thread killer

Oh thanks queen - cross posts.

I am really in two minds about whether to take it back to solicitor. Prob wont make him stop, and would give him the response he's desperate for.

So far, I have managed to ignore his provocative messages completely. It is almost amusing (except that it isn't) how he manages to carry on sending message after message with ANY response from me. Complelrtely one-sided. He is so self-obsessed that he never listens to others, so maybe he just doesn't need me to answer or retort. It is enough to him to know that he is getting through.

Grr.

It's well worth keeping a record and going to a solicitor. Also, I second the advice of getting another phone and just turning on the old one at the times he is supposed to call, PITA though it may be. If he misses the time, too bad. He is making you wait around for his call otherwise -- making your life revolve around his in other words, just like before. They are very self centered and make their victims focus on them too. This is what he's doing to you with the contact issues he is manufacturing.

Keep up the ignoring. I'm guessing he's back in your lives because whatever relationship he had right after yours failed and he no longer has any kind of a punchbag in his life. Don't take the bait -- he will probably find someone else to abuse sooner or later. Horrible thought.

Keep your DCs in the contact centre for visits. He will hate it, but it's the only way to guarantee their basic safety.

The DCs will be well able to tell the difference between you and their father where quality of parenting is concerned. I would keep lines of communication open and sympathise with them when he lets them down, tell them straight up that he has treated them badly and that they don't deserve that. I recommend this site for more info on NPD and other disorders plus insight into how normal people dealing with an N can deal with it.

redpjs try reading this book

It's very good.

Also, the NPD thread covers all sorts of our experiences and even though it's long it's worth reading, as many of us have dcs and it may help feel less alone in dealing with your ex.

Out of interest when you say he had no contact with the DCs for three years, did he still maintain contact with you or did he just go awol and then suddenly turn up in your lives again and want access?

As far as a diagnosis s concerned, there cld only be ne if he took himself off to a psychiatrist/therapist whatver, and obtained one himself. This is very unlikely to happen. NPDers never think there is anything wrong with them. They re-write history and believe their own fabrications. And even if he did go for some therapy he would pull the same tricks on the therapist and quickly decide the therapist was stupid.

There is no cure for NPD.
Treatment has a poor prognosis.

Remain as strict as you have been with him, for your own sanity and dignity as much as anything else. But especially for your children's sakes.

It is such a bastard of a disorder. I don't think there is any general rule for what you tell the dcs as it depends on their ages, their relationship with him, who else is around to help and myriad other things. But like therealme and gettingagrip I don't think it should be all swept under the carpet with them.

Would it help to tell us more of your 'story' with him? How long were you together, how did you get together, did he do the idealise-devalue-discard number on you? What was he like with money etc?

Our sympathies are with you.

UA - that book looks interesting. I wonder if it would be in the library.

To answer you questions, for the first three years after we escaped, he made no effort or practical arrangements to actually see the children, but send me numerous texts telling me I was stopping him seeing the children. It really was weird. He also chose to move back to his country of origin (in Africa - just think of the one with the worst reputation, and that'll be it), but of course it was still my fault that he didn't see the children. I really do think he believes his own lies and accusations. The the textx petered out when I changed my mobile number.

A good couple of years later, he started re-contacting via solicitor. I always made it clear to him that I refused to communicate at all, except via a solicitor. He has seen them in total 4 times. The last time was over a year ago, despite him bringing me to court earlier this year.

You suggested I tell the 'story' of us. I will try to make it succinct. We got together in 1997 during my final year at Uni. Married about 18 months later. Quickly had two children. He was always very possessive and bossy even at first, but I didn't really think anything of it. Just assumed that people adapt when in a relationship, and that we'd work out compromises as time went on,. And there was a lot good about him at that time. He seemed entertaining and sort of protective of me. Actually, I really do see now ghow a lot of what went on should have made bells ring, but I had no expeience of a person like that. I just assumed the best of everyone.

Shortly after we were married, he erally suddenly changed. Demanded hos own way about literally everything. Was scary and intimidating. Made me wear what he chose. Demanded sex all the time. Always checking up on me, and finding out where I am and who I have spoken to. Later on he would regularly not allow me out of the house. He said he wanted to s;pend time with me. That just meant to have me at his disposal for sex. He would also spend (literally) hours at a time on the phone while I was required to stay in the house, trying to entertain out child. He had dodgy friends. Towards the end, he spent virtually all his time either abusing me or out of the house with this friends, or on the phone. I was ignored apart from when he wanted action.

There were the usual sorries and gifts after violece to start with, but he stopped even bothering wioth that after a while. It got worse and worse, and I can say with as much certainty as humanly possible that he would have killed me if I had stayed much longer.

He would force arguments, and then blame me for stating arguments. What ever I did was wrong. He woukld make my life not worth living about something trivial, and then when I tried to obey him on the matter next time, he would change his mind about that very thing.

He would regularly test me to see how far he could control me. Trying to force me to sign things that he reused to let me know what it was for, and then getting vilolent when I refused. Jeopardising and family holiday that I had been really looking forward to. Misplacing things and then blaming me. He twisted everything around. Really bad crazy-making. I felt that my mind was being sucked out. I was almost forgetting who I was.

The final leaving is another long story, but I'll leave it there for now.

My oldest dd is very emotionally mature for her age (8). Do you think I shouldf tell her that story? So far, I have said that dady was not sagfe to live with. He hurt mummy. He has certain problems where he can't treat people properly, and he is very unreliable. But I also assure her that he loves her (even though I don't really believe it) and try to be enthuisiastic when he is supposed to call.

Sorry for the epic. It helps to get (a small portion of) it out.

That is such a grim story, I don't really know where to start. But well done on getting away.

Two things, you asked in a previous message if anyone had an NPD father. Well, I had an NPD mother, no my Dad did not protect us and I feel he has a personality disorder of his own, very anti-social and emotionally distant. I was in my twenties before I could get my head round what NPD was. It is only really now, after having been through it with my ex (I'm 40) that I can see how chaotic and bizarre my childhood was. I think that's why I had the tolerance if you like to put up with my ex's behaviour. I don't really know what normal is.

And that's why my second point is that I think your DD is far too young to be introduced to these concepts. IMO, children can't cope with these ideas and concepts, especially before they have been through adolesence. I think keeping it simple is the best thing here.

I wouldn't feel too pushed about telling your DD that daddy loves her. What message is she getting about what it's like to be loved? And I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about his calls. I would ask her how she felt about daddy instead, or how she felt after speaking to him on the phone. The rest of what you've said to her sounds spot on.

It's easy for someone like this to get along on a superficial and very infrequent level with children. For longer periods, they begin to treat the children exactly as they treat their spouse, because the children, of course, are individuals, with minds of their own, and after a bit, someone who believes he's the centre of the universe feels threatened by a child's obvious separateness from him. As children grow older it becomes more and more difficult for someone like your ex to get along with the children.

My oldest DD hasn't spoken to her father since she was 15, and he won't speak to her either. He started reacting to her like an equal, not a parent, from the time she was about 3, and things went downhill from there. At 15 he attacked her physically after picking a fight with her. He came crying to me when she hit him back, like an aggrieved sibling telling on her to mummy. My guess is that my ex has an emotional age of about 3 or 4. He can't handle normal childlike behaviour and certainly no teenage 'attitude'. So the children have a choice of not really being themselves with him or acting like normal children and risking god only knows what. As they get older the problem grows worse.

You are one brave woman and mother to have lived and coped through everything. Do what you believe is right for you and your children. xxx

Thanks for the replies.

When I tell my dd that I'm sure he loves her, really it is always when I'm trying to explain to her what happened, and the reason why things are the way they are. It is almost as a way of cushioning her. So she doesn't grow up to think I have tried to poison her against him. I'm always really careful to avoid that if possible.

Younger dd barely asks much about him. She's only nearly 7.

I suppose I just don't want them to grow up believing I have prevented them knowing their dad. Just that I have tried to keep it under control so that they are safe and not too influenced by him during their informative years. By appearing 'happy' to them when he is due to call, I just think it helps tehm feel at ease and not worried or guilty for talking to him. They are incredibly loyal to me by nature.

When he calls, he spends the most of the time going on and on about how much he loves them (I would die for you, I think of you every day etc. etc.).

I just keep trying to give them a normal life for the majority of the time, and hope that when they do end up on the receiving end of his abusive control (which is bound to happen if they ever try to establish any semblance of s relationship), I hope they will have the strength to know what is ok and what is unacceptable, so they know what to do.

I really feel sorry for children who grow up with a parent like this. It must be so difficult to learn that it's wrong when it feels so normal. I suppose that is what I so desperately want to protect them from.

Thank you all for posting your experiences and advice and book recommendations. I really do appreciate it.

Redpyjamas, a lot of your story resonated with me (although there was less violence in my case). Ex is still in the UK and is still playing the adoring father of DD, who is just about to turn two. I'm half-waiting for the other shoe to drop, because I remember him acting that loving and charming towards me, and how self-serving it ultimately was. I don't have any wise advice to offer, but thanks for sharing your experience.

By the way, Lundy Bancroft of "Why does he do that?" fame (a must-read if you haven't already) also has books called "The Batterer as Parent" and "When Dad hurts Mom: Helping your child heal the wounds of witnessing abuse" which might address some of your questions. I haven't read them, so can't recommend, but they might be worth a look.

Thanks for those book recommendations, NicknameTaken.

Yes, I read the Lundy B book shortly after I left. It was brilliant to clarify things in my mind. Quite uncanny how accurate about him the book is. Do these men read the book and follow the instructions?

If anyone reads the two parenting ones, I'd love to hear if they're any good. I read an extract of "The Batterer as Parent" and I found it pretty scary. I think its aim is to persuade SW/court officials that they shouldn't assume that it's good for children to have access to an abusive parent, so it deliberately focuses on the negatives. It may be pretty discouraging, though, when you are in a situation where you have to allow access, or you choose to because you see some benefits.

I think anything that sheds light on the impact of these dangerous people is a good thing. I sincerely hope that eventually Bancroft's perspective will filter into the 'system' and result in an end to the assumption that any sort of father is better than none in a child's life. If you have to allow access, at least knowing what you're dealing with helps you to help your children. And you can possibly revisit the access issue through the courts as time goes on. I'm looking for the books and will read them. The Why Does He.. book could have been written about my ex too.